The Greek-Macedonian name dispute – good-neighbourly relations?

98 Responses to “The Greek-Macedonian name dispute – good-neighbourly relations?”

1. john says:

   July 7, 2010 at 1:46 am

   @Kris

   Lets see what real lingustics states about your language

   “Macedonian is similar to Bulgarian and is sometimes been regarded as a variety of that language.”

   “Encyclopedia of Bilingualism and Bilingual Education”, Colin Baker, Sylvia Prys Jones, p. 415

   “From a strictly linguistic point of view Macedonian can be called a Bulgarian dialect, as structurally it is most similar to Bulgarian. ”

   “Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics”, Keith Brown, 1994

   The question should be raised why do former self determined Bulgarians try to link themself to the ancient macedonian territory/history which is to almost 100% within the boarders of Greece. What problems will that cause in the future when Fyroms ultra nationalistic government theaches its children that 33% of Greece territory belongs to them? Did the author miss that in her analysis? Did she not learn anything from the ethnic conflicts within Yugoslavia? Should a nation be allowed to enter EU whan its whole identity is based on falsification of history? Every historical figure from Tsar Samuil , Kuber Saint Naum , Alexander , Cyril etc have all been historical falsified by Fyrom and rebranded with an artificial ethnik Macedonian tag. Maybe the author can answer the reason why 400 accredited historians writes:

   ” the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.”
2. Anon says:

   July 7, 2010 at 2:21 am

   @kris

   You write: “the bottom line is that history created Macedonians (us) and Greeks (you) there is no turning back or changing that fact.”

   Or so you claim. Keep in mind your claim is from someone that also attempts claim to be related to ancient Macedonians, claims a former Bulgarian dialect is now “Macedonian”, and hides from very unambiguous evidence of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian past.

   You write: “we on the other hand have always called ourselves Macedonians”

   Childish nationalist myths.

   ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
   (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

   –On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans.  In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said:  “We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz.”  In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language.” 

   ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

   “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

   Your problem is you listen to absurd self-proclaimed “historians” like Risto. He isn’t even an accredited historian. He is a former office assistant. I’m not even sure if he went to college but unfortunately he sells books by telling FYROM nationalists like you what they want to hear-rather than the truth.

   And the truth is you mostly used call yourselves ethnic Bulgarians less than a century ago. There were some ethnic Serbs mixed in the later Tito era as Yugoslav communists encouraged the creation of the “ethnic Macedonian” identity to serve the double interest of making claims on Greek Macedonia and distancing ethnic Bulgarians in Yugoslavia from the Bulgarians cousins)

   During the Byzantine and later Ottoman era your Bulgarian ancestors also occasionally mixed with Greeks and other people’s too-but your identity, culture, location, education practices, and language is clearly in Bulgarian cultural sphere.

   You write: “It should be no surprise that Alexander introduced the standard koine Greek language for his multi-ethnic empire.”

   Many large empires had multiple languages but I challenge you to produce me one empire in history that used a language other than its own as a primary language of its conquered states. Did Romans use Greek or Latin? Did the Huns use Chinese? Did the British spread French? Did the French spread English?

   You write: “For that Greek language was already the only international language on which the people in antiquity communicated prior to the Macedonian conquest”

   You are just making up facts out of thin air to suit your pleasant narrative as an “ancient Macedonian”. The evidence points to the FACT it was ancient Macedonians themselves that made Greek an international language. (why it is named the Hellenistic period after the Macedonian expansion and not before)
3. Anon says:

   July 7, 2010 at 2:35 am

   The FYROM nationalists on this thread referencing Macedonia as “occupied” and now claiming themselves related to ancient Macedonians…. are living evidence that Greeks were right all along about the FYROM government’s irredentist behavior and attempts to steal Greece’s heritage.

   Again… these are the words of FYROM own elected public officals. How is it the FYROM government elected these officials that didn’t even know their “ancient identity” only a few years ago… yet today claim to be direct descents (in an unbroken chain according to Kris)

   ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
   (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

   ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

   “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

   ‘The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.’
   (FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski – 1991 to 1993)
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related

   “We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”
   (Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician – “Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia” – A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
   http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88

   ‘Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev – must I list and count all of them – were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.’
   (former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book ‘Facing the truth’)

   “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

   “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

   It doesn’t affect anyone else calling FYROM “Macedonians”. For now, FYROM’s state propaganda only hurts Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians so it’s easy to pretend to be taking the high moral ground when it isn’t someone else’s nation under threat. However, its that sort of thinking of making sacrificial goats of other people’s nations which creates fertile ground for evil to flourish unabated.

   (recent FYROM state run TV broadcast)
   “Divine blessing for you, my Macedonians. I have waited for thousands of years to be called by you. From always with you, from eternity I am coming, I am already among you because here neither time nor space exists. Here, at my place, the time is still. But at your place, the time is now, for me to explain. Your mother earth I have inhabited with three races: the White-Macedonoids, the Yellow-Mongoloids and the Black-Negroids. The rest-all are mulattoes. From you, Macedonians, the descendants of Macedon, I have impregnated the White race and everything began from you, to the Sea of Japan. All White people are your brothers because they carry Macedonian gene. And all the migrations started from your place towards the north. Kokino, Porodin, Radobor, Angelci, Barutnica, Govrlevo, wherever you dig you shall find the truth who you are, why you are and from where are you. Evil diabolic souls obscured the truth for thousands of years and lied to the world.”
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ITEdiSBl3Y&annotation_id=annotation_772496&feature=iv

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
   http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
4. Anon says:

   July 7, 2010 at 4:46 am

   @kris

   Suppose the dirty corrupt Greek paid these hundreds of university professors (including many from some of the most prestigious universities in the world) to put their careers on the line supporting Greece? (by going up against a mob of ignorant haters that unfairly blame Greeks for decades of oppression of your ethnic Bulgarian heritage by communists)

   Dear President Obama,

   We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

   On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.

   We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)

   The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

   While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.

   Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

   We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

   Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.

   Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

   Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

   Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

   Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

   The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

   The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

   The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

   The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

   The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

   However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.

   We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
   http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
5. kris says:

   July 7, 2010 at 5:28 am

   ethnic bulgarian past???
   that doesn’t explain the Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia- Bulgaria, who created them? Tito? the Aliens?
   I am sure you will find some explanation in your head…
   but you should consider that Bulgarians adopted the Macedonian language trough the evangelization with St. Kliment of Ohrid, by a decree of their own king, who forbade the use of their tartar language.
   so you see Bulgarians adopted Macedonian, not the other way around…
   Macedonian and Bulgarian today are separate and distinct languages, similar but different just as Macedonian is similar but different with other Slavic languages …
   but since greeks are always hung up on the language thing,
   consider this: Serbs, Croatians, Montenegrins, Bosnians all speak ONE IDENTICAL LANGUAGE,
   called Serbo-Croatian, but yet you wouldn’t call them one nation…. just goes to show your hypocrisy, half truths and misinformation you stand ready to use to justify your genocidal crimes against Macedonians.
   but the “joke” is on you, cause only greeks seem to believe their own mental constructions.
6. Jana Lozanoska says:

   July 7, 2010 at 11:47 am

   Dear all,

   Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I must note that none of them refers to article itself and its content, therefore for this subject I don’t find them relevant. The article wasn’t intended for propagandist purposes (as some of the commentators say) and wasn’t intended to discuss history but to examine one part of the substance of the ‘problem’ by recalling the facts (for which there is a application at the International Court of Justice) and law. I understand that some of you feel frustrated because of the lack of legal arguments on Greece’s side and therefore resort to some points to unreliable and unfunded arguments.

   Further, I’d like to reply to one commentator who said that ‘the Interim Accord from 1995 refers to Greece and FYROM’. To this I must add clarification and point out that isn’t correct because the Interim Accord refers to the First Party (which applies to Greece) and the Second Party which applies to (Republic of Macedonia), on purpose the naming was avoided – because of our provisional name in UN which is (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and not as our neighbors from Greece insist on FYROM). In addition, one commentator discussed the fact that I mentioned that the cultural heritage is not exclusive right to one state but the humankind as whole. Obviously the said commentator didn’t understand the article and doesn’t follow the discourse and the problem in general. Since the Greek government and EU representatives insist and relate the renaming of the Airport and insertion of sculptures to good neighborly relations I had intention to portray that this strategy and argumentation is unsubstantiated for the simple reason that such criteria doesn’t exist in the formal content of the principle of good neighborly relations as perceived by UN. And according to UN Charter EU and NATO are only regional organizations which must act and observe the principles of the Charter.

   At the end I must also note that most of you don’t understand the issue, but however this kinds of forums are good place partly to clarify some things. Namely, the Greek line of argumentation that the name Republic of Macedonia triggers territorial pretensions is completely ill-founded. Why? In accordance with Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which governs this issue, the threat and use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of any state is prohibited. In this respect, use of force implies use of armed force. This force can be direct (armed force by a state) or indirect (when other states equip or assist irregulars). Resolution 3314 of the UN General Assembly in 1970 contains a description of activities that can be considered acts of aggression, i.e., armed attacks, and these activities do not only refer to use of force, since, according to practice, this latter term is more extensive and, amongst other things, includes border incidents. The activities in Resolution 3314 are taxonomically enumerated and they include: invasion or attack of a state by another state’s armed forces; bombardments; armed blockade of ports; the employment of mercenaries and armed irregulars by a state in order to carry out an armed attack of another state. This shows that the name of a country cannot represent the basis for territorial pretensions towards another state. If this were the case then, in a European context, Belgium, which has a province called Luxembourg, could accuse Luxembourg of having territorial pretensions towards it. The same goes for Great Britain (Grande Bretagne in French) and France, where there is a region called Brittany (Bretagne in French). In an African context, the example is even more significant since here we are dealing with the names of two states, rather than names of provinces and regions – the names of the Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo are almost the same. The latter state used to be called Zaire in the past and in recent times it changed its name to ‘the Democratic Republic of the Congo’. Nevertheless, the Republic of the Congo does not claim that the Democratic Republic of the Congo has territorial pretensions towards it and neither party has asked for negotiations within the auspices of the UN, like in the case of the Republic of Macedonia.
   Furthermore, question 1 (c) of the Badinter Commission, related to the uti possidetis principle (stability and non-changeability of borders that have already been established), was: “does Macedonia (the Commission only used the name Macedonia in the opinion) pledge that it will not change its borders by use of force?”, to which the then Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Macedonia answered: “Yes, the Republic of Macedonia will respect the inviolability of territorial borders that can only be changed in a peaceful way and through consent”. Therefore, Greece’s claims that the name “Macedonia” entails territorial pretensions are unfounded for two reasons, even more so at a time when the uti possidetis.
   principle, i.e., the principle of non-changeability of borders is deeply rooted in international law. Secondly, the decision to call ourselves the Republic of Macedonia cannot in any case fall under the category of territorial pretensions, i.e., use of force or threat, and thus it does not represent interference in Greece’s internal affairs. Indeed, this is exactly what Badinter’s Commission concluded in its Opinion No 6.

   The Greece’s insistence and pressure to Republic of Macedonia to change its name violates the principles of sovereign equality and non-interference in the internal affairs of states, which has been concluded by many authors. With the tabled proposals by the mediator Nimitz on which Greece insists on, actually wants to call upon history in order to separate (in a physical sense) the territory of ancient Macedonia, that has existed in the past, from the state Republic of Macedonia, which exists in the present, is based on the existing democratic principles and values, and has clearly defined borders and political system. These demands would be at least slightly more legitimate and more logical if the Republic of Macedonia called itself Ancient Macedonia, but in this case, Greece’s arguments fall down completely and show the complete groundlessness of Greece’s claims.

   In any case thank you for the interest. This article only intended to discuss one aspect of the issue (which is the legal one) and in no case is intended to foster animosity or nationalistic propaganda as some of you point out. Therefore, I kindly ask you to refrain from creating animosity and nationalism because such behavior in no case would add to clarification and solving of the issue.

   If interested to read more on the issue please visit: http://www.euba.edu.mk/CIA/Exposing%20and%20deconstructing%20the%20Greek%20arguments.pdf

   Best regards,
   Jana Lozanoska
7. Anon says:

   July 7, 2010 at 7:46 pm

   @Jana Lozanoska

   Putting aside your attempt to play down the state level support of FYROM government trying to portary themselves as related to ancient Macedonians (roughly akin to a Syrian claiming to be an “ethnic Tel Avian”, you conveniently forget to mention that all the nations you mention don’t have large numbers of their nationals making land claims against a neighboring state. (with endless claims that Macedonia Greece is “occupied”, “partitioned”, and “divided” not to mention endless “united Macedonia” references)

   The French do not claim London as “Solun” despite that it used to be Norman. They do not suggest Newton was ethnically French despite that is was a long time ago and that there is no racial pure nations (Nazi myths). Furthermore FYROM nationalists like Kris exist by the hundreds of thousands that are encouraged by FYROM’s state myths to see themselves “victims” to some bizarre 2200 years old conspiracy of being surpressed “Macedonians”)

   Laws are meant to serve justice not to be selectively chosen to act as loopholes for injustice. The article is ultimately about the name dispute. You are arguing for FYROM positions and selectively choosing to see the evidence you wish. (much like Kris who is in complete denial of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian past) That’s fine but that’s not objective reporting. That’s you being a nationalist while pretending to stand for legal principles.

   Lets not forget the fact FYROM nationalists constantly bury-US and the western world had absolutely no problem whatsoever not recognizing FYROM not so long ago- so there is precedence for objecting to a name on grounds when it is being manipulated for “aggressive intentions” against a neighbouring state.

   “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
   U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
   http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

   Furthermore, if the name to a nation is absolute as you seem to be trying to claim- why did FYROM withdraw recognition of the Republic of China? A rather hypocritical stance no?

   Quote:
   “emphatically that there is but one China in the world, that the Government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government representing the whole of China and that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the Chinese territory”
   http://en.wikipedia.org
   /wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#P.R._China_and_R.O._China
   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm
8. Anon says:

   July 7, 2010 at 8:12 pm

   The FYROM government are quick to claim they don’t have land claims against Greece. Of course 20 years ago (before widespread recognition) FYROM’s government officials were assuring 3rd parties….

   ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
   (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

   ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

   “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

   Yet today doing the exact opposite….

   “In the peak-time slot every Saturday evening on TV in Skopje, Atanas Pcelarski explains the meaning of words from the world of Classical Antiquity in modern Macedonian. Macedonia is the source of the world. Languages, themes about God, religion, the legal system, they all stem from Macedonia,” he declares. The Macedonia of Classical Antiquity and the modern republic are one and the same.”

   “It is the not just the media that pushes the theme of Macedonia’s Classical identity. Monuments to Classical heroes are springing up in town after town. The capital, Skopje, is to erect a 22-metre-tall monument to Alexander next year. His statue already crowns the centre of Prilep. “In a few months time, a statue of Alexander’s father, Philip the Second, will dominate the main square in Bitola. The main highway to the Greek border has been renamed “Alexander of Macedon”, while the main sports stadium in Skopje has been renamed after Philip.

   “Official data show the authorities are paying thousands of people to work on archaeological projects. The director of the Bureau for Protection of Cultural Heritage, archaeologist Pasko Kuzman, says their work will prove that today’s Macedonians descend from the Macedonians of Classical Antiquity – not from the Slavs who migrated into the Balkans from the 5th-century onwards.”
   http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/opinions.php?nav_id=63275

   “In an interview in his office, sitting next to a wall-size copy of a 13th-century icon of Alexander, Kuzman
   insisted that Greece had stolen the conqueror’s legacy from Macedonia, not the other way around.” (Pasko Kuzman is current head of government’s cultural/archeology department in FYROM)
   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702653_2.html

   Unfortunately many people haven’t caught on that what FYROM government officials say publicly to them and what they encourage their citizens to think are two radically different behaviors.

   Here is the current PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of “United Macedonia”-that includes 1/3 of Greek territory annexed,
   http://www.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg

   A quick 30 second Google search reveals thousands upon thousands of “United Macedonia” references and maps.
   http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=united+Macedonia&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4692a3ff86a6f392

   You “forget” to mention that part Jana? Since when did it become acceptable behavior for one nation to attempt to usurp the identity of another? Since when did it become acceptable to claim large sections of a neighboring state?

   Some well meaning third parties might have been fooled through sweet talk about “minority” rights by FYROM officials (who frankly have one of the worst minority records in Europe). Some well meaning anti-nationalist types also came to the wrong conclusion that a nation can have a name and not attempt to create a past with it. (in effect they’ve been working for the cause ultra-nationalism by encouraging such conditions to grow). And of course there are those that are simply prejudiced against Greeks (including some that claim to support minorities). Those types simply hate us because they are tired of hearing Greeks did this or that in the ancient past (i.e. they are so insecure with themselves they can’t stand the thought of a “real” Greek because they stereotype us all as peasants living “myths” or filled with hubris)

   I’m not buying any of it. FYROM needs to shape up or it will continue to generate Balkan instability. Being part of the EU or Nato won’t change that. Greece and Turkey are part of Nato but it didn’t stop Turkey from invading Cyprus 30 years ago. Israel and Turkey and US are all supposed to be on the same side. Hasn’t created stability between them either.

   The bottom line is FYROM cannot build a identity on historical fabrications. For as long as it does it will be inherently unstable and generate hostility in the Balkans. The only way for FYROM to be stable is to confront its Bulgarian past and stop trying to build narratives to ancient Macedonia that simply do not exist. The closest there is to that is the prior Greek-speaking Byzantine Themata not the Slavic Bulgarians that opposed them.
9. kris says:

   July 7, 2010 at 8:33 pm

   anon, you really think Macedonians will come and take over the Aegean, don’t you?
   if you think that, no name change will help your fears!
   but just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not after you
   I think greeks are really afraid of the 1,5 -2 million Macedonians within their borders whose
   emancipation is helped by the very existence of the Republic of Macedonia,
   but the time of ethnic cleansing is gone for a NATO/EU member like Greece,
   so why not thwart the problem by eliminating Macedonians all together, by taking their name for example?
   good plan, on the surface acceptable for the other “democracies” but as we can see
   it’s going hard!
   it’s impossible to lift the name Macedonia from Macedonians!
10. Anon says:

    July 7, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    @kris

    You write: “you really think Macedonians will come and take over the Aegean, don’t you?”

    No. I think you (mostly) former ethnic Bulgarians might try again though. While FYROM itself cannot do anything it didn’t stop it in the past from eventually forming regional alliances. (see the atrocities committed on Greeks by IMRO ultra-nationalists that aligned with the Axis and other IMRO ultra-nationalists aligned with the communists to grasp just how extreme nationalism is in FYROM)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg

    You write: “but just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not after you) I think greeks are really afraid of the 1,5 -2 million Macedonians within their borders”

    There are 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece… plus millions more Greeks than consider ancient Macedonia part of their cultural identity. There are also roughly 10,000 FYROM nationalists living in Greece that wish to be known as “ethnic Macedonians” living in Greece. Macedonians of course disagree that people that identify with the former ethnic Bulgarians living in what was once the ancient Kingdom of Peonian should be allowed to usurp their ethnic identity. The Rainbow Party of Greece, which claims to supports the “human rights” of Macedonians, received less than 5000 votes in all of Macedonia last election. Apparently Macedonians aren’t buying the historical gibberish promoted by ultra-nationalists like you. My guess for this is because millions of them can actually read many of the Greek inscriptions found on ancient Macedonian artifacts. Can you say the same?

    You write: “emancipation is helped by the very existence of the Republic of Macedonia, but the time of ethnic cleansing is gone for a NATO/EU member like Greece,”

    Greece does not “ethnically cleanse” but it will fight wars like any nation to prevent itself from being ethnically cleansed or by aggressive states looking to expand. (e.g. by people like you that deny our identity since it interferes with your “ancient Macedonian” racially purity state myth)

    You write: “the name Macedonia from Macedonians!”

    I actually agree. Seeing as the modern and ancient regions of Macedonia is located physically in Greece, that modern Macedonians in Greece still speak a Greek dialect (passed down to them by the prior Byzantine Themata), given in the 19th century you freely called yourselves ethnic Bulgarians… I would just argue that our Macedonians have a far far better claim than you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia.

    Don’t blame Greeks because your own national heroes considered their ethnic roots Bulgarian. (something extreme nationalists like you hide from)

    Again Krste Misirkov wrote “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Or how about in 1908 where he writes he is looking to “serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”?
    “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

    Or when he states “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”. Why would he need to qualify with “Bulgarians” if there was some pure ethnic Macedonian identity?
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    Or how about what FYROM nationalists today call an “ethnic macedonian” uprising. Misirkov describe it as an uprising lead by Bulgarians.
    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    Or why would Misirkov state that you used to call yourselves Bulgarians?
    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    Why would Misirkov claim that a “Macedonian slav nationality has NEVER existed”?
    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Why would Mirsirkov state “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    Or how about your other great “Ethnic Macedonian” hero Gotse Delchev.

    Here are the BMARC, statutes co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other ethnic Bulgarians you today claim were actually “ethnic Macedonians”. (which is a blatant lie)

    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

    Even the NY Times and London Times reported Delchev’s death as an ethnic Bulgarian in 1903.
    http://tinyurl.com/mxfcqq

    Delchev and Misirkov are FYROM’s own national heroes right Kris?
11. kris says:

    July 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    anon, you are taking things out of contest, again to serve your propaganda!
    Delchev and Misirkov were fighting for an independent Macedonia, thats why they were sabotaged by bulgarians.
    Delchev for one was from the part of Macedonia you greeks occupy today!
    I don’t think at 1902 Delchev for a second thought that his motherland would become greek territory,
    nor did he think Macedonia had anything to do with Greece!
    he surely knew the ethnic make up, as he traveled around with his troops,
    why would he fight for liberation of Macedonia (including the Aegean part of Macedonia), if the people there were greeks?
    and if you think there are only 10, 000 Macedonians in Greece, well then, you should have no worries whatsoever:)
12. Anon says:

    July 8, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    @kris

    You write: “You are taking things out of contest, again to serve your propaganda”

    It is ultra-nationalists like you that are taking things out of context. Ask yourself why does virtually every 3rd party historian on earth say you have essentially nothing to do with ancient Macedonians? (except the ones in FYROM of course)

    Take for example Loring Danforth. He’s a long time support of FYROM right?

    a. He consistently portrays Greeks as oppressors and FYROM nationalists as victims in his books. (This despite that Greeks human rights record has usually been substantially better than FYROMs throughout the 20th century and even today)

    b. He “forgets” to mention in his books that even his own country in the 1940s claimed your ethnic identity is due to communist propaganda. He “forgets” to mention IMRO leadership that aligned themselves with the Nazis and Bulgaria in forcibly occupying Macedonia and MURDERED many Greeks in the process (just prior to the Greek civil war)

    c. He’s claimed (falsely) that there was a “consensus” (his word) among scholars that ancient Macedonians weren’t Greeks (which is exactly the position you FYROM nationalists hold right?)

    d. He shows up at your “ethnic Macedonian” conferences constantly denouncing Greeks and writes letters of support to your self-proclaimed “human rights” websites (aka “Human rights” for you alone. To hell with the 25% of your country that is Albanian. Don’t dare admit your Bulgarian heritage in FYROM-could get you killed. And of course, you undermine the identity of Macedonians in Greece since it blows away your state myths)

    Danforth can hardly be accused of being an “ethnic cleanser” or “racist” against FYROM nationalists. (which is the exact way FYROM nationalist extremists like you smear anyone that dare questions your historical fabrications) Lets see what he says about your claimed ancient Macedonian roots.

    “The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)

    “Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD”
    http://www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm
13. Nikolaos says:

    July 9, 2010 at 1:31 am

    So Guys you are trying to tell me that the various coins and other artefacts that have been found in Asia don’t have greek words in them?
    So why I and every Greek can read them? Nobody answered to me why Alexander was so passionate about Greek culture and language and not his Macedonian Language and culture? Why he chose Greek language to promote and his Macedonian? what happened to his powerful Macedonian inheritance. And don’t come to me with two or three words untranslated from here and there.

    Come on guys, my questions where simple, I didn’t attack anybody, ok? And what is this nonsense about Alexander speaking Modern Macedonian? What’s that? Your language is Bulgarian to me… Maybe I need to do a bit of reading as you say, but I can come with facts any day and wave them in your faces. Greeks still speak the natural continuation of the ancient Greek language today… Fact. Alexander did not speak Bulgarian I’m afraid and that’s a historical fact.

    Facts: Alexander worshipped greeks, his parents were greeks, studied with greeks, showed greek culture (cousine etc.) to the ancient lands, called himself a greek, he almost took a photograph kissing Aphrodite. Come on! just because people live nowadays in a place vaguely in the place of ancient macedonia, doesn’t mean that they are descendants of macedonians buy trying to change ancient history.

    I’m off to have a frappe in Salonika.
14. kris says:

    July 9, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    anon and Nikolaos, the question is not whether we are Slavs,
    yes of course we are Slavs, the question is whether Slavs really came in the 5th century
    cause there is no solid proof of that, Russians have said a million times that there is nothing behind the Karpathians
    etymologists, linguists, genetics tests have said a million times that there is a CONTINUATION of the people in the Blakans since the Neolithic times. that’s all contrary to the theory of the “coming of the Slavs”
    and don’t forget, we have been called Macedonians for a long, long time, as a matter of fact ALWAYS.
    there are documents in every century that address us as Macedonians and you as Greeks,
    here are some document examples that predate Tito, Misirkov etc, just to clear your “confusion”

    1878

    From the record of the Imperial Russian secret archives on the arrangement and government of the Balkan regions.

    …Count Shuvalov demands that all the necessary measures for pacification of Macedonia be undertaken. For its purpose, it would be desirable to send competent agents there, and to proclaim to the Macedonians on behalf of the Governor, the Emperor, that His Highness is concerned about their fate, as much as for the other Slavs, and they will be granted the same freedom as that of the Bulgarians, now already liberated….

    Dokumenti iz sekretnite arhivi na Ruskoto pravitelstvo. Sofia 1893, p.11-12.

    ******
    Bertrandon de la Brocquiere met Macedonians in 1432-1433!

    ******
    Macedonians found in Jerusalem in the 14th century!
    Here is an interesting book that was published between 1357 and 1371.

    The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, by Sir John Mandeville.

    This country and land of Jerusalem hath been in many divers nations’ hands, and often, therefore, hath the country suffered much tribulation for the sin of the people that dwell there. For that country hath been in the hands of all nations; that is to say, of Jews, of Canaanites, Assyrians, Persians, Medes, Macedonians, of Greeks, Romans, of Christian men, of Saracens, Barbarians, Turks, Tartars, and of many other divers nations; for God will not that it be long in the hands of traitors ne of sinners, be they Christian or other. And now have the heathen men held that land in their hands forty year and more; but they shall not hold it long, if God will.

    *****

    Macedonians noted in the Gesta Hungarorum, 10th century!
    Here is the Latin version of were the Macedonians are noted:

    De ciuibus bulgarorum et macedonum

    Transactis quibusdam diebus zuard et cadusa cum omni exercitu suo, eleuatis uexillis signiferis aquam danubij transnauigauerunt, et castrum borons ceperunt, deinde ad castrum scereducy iuerunt. Audientes hoc ciues bulgarorum et macedonum, tumerunt ualde a facie eorum. Tunc omnes incole illius miserunt nuntios suos cum donarris multis, ut terram sibi subiugarent, et filios suos in obsides traderunt. Zuard et cadusa paci fauentes et dona et obsides eorum accipientes eos quasi suum proprium populum in pace dimisserunt. Ipsi uero ceperunt ecuitare ultra portam Wacil, et castrum philippi regis ceperunt, deinde totam terram usque ad cleopatram ciuitatem sibi subiugauerunt. Et sub potestate sua habuerunt totam terram a ciuitate durasu usque ad terram rachy. Et zuardu in eadem terra duxit sibi uxorem, et populus ille qui nunc dicitur sobamogera, mortuo duce zuard in grecia remansit. Et ideo dictus est soba secundum grecos id est stultus populus, quia mortuo domino suo uiam non dilexit redire ad patriam suam.

    and so on and so forth….
15. Donna says:

    July 9, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    Thanks again, Jana Lozanovska, for responding to all commentators. At the
    very beginning I questioned Anon if he read the article – not realizing
    I was dealing with an attitude of a child. Let Anon have his feel of lies.
    Say anything you want, Anon, you’re not worth my time for any more explanations and restatubg the hystory.
16. Anon says:

    July 9, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    @kris

    You write: “yes of course we are Slavs:

    Are you sure you are Slavic? Seems to me even your own high ranking government official can’t even agree about that anymore. The secondary question of course is… did ancient Macedonians have a Slavic identity?

    You write: “were are some document examples that predate Tito, Misirkov etc, just to clear your “confusion””

    It is you that is “confused” (to the point of delusion) because you only select passages that suit your narrative and pretend the passages that clearly see otherwise don’t exist. For instance why would Krste Misirkov say this?

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Or this: “Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”
    http://misirkov.org/preface.htm

    Or this: “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm
    Or this: “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Or this (in 1924) “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    etc… etc…

    You write: “Macedonians noted in the Gesta Hungarorum, 10th century!”

    This is exactly the sort of ignorance that makes it impossible to deal rationally with national extremists like you.

    “Macedonia” in the middle ages refers to the GREEK-SPEAKING themata of the Byzantine state. The Macedonia its referencing isn’t even located in FYROM, its in THRACE! You don’t even realize that your evidence of “Macedonians” points to our Greek-speaking Greco-Roman Byzantine ancestors not your Bulgarian ones Like Tsar Samual.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria

    You seemingly prefer to live in nationalist myths and hate rather than reality Kris.
17. Anon says:

    July 9, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    @Donna says:”Let Anon have his feel of lies.”

    And you can continue to promote unfair hatred of Greeks for the sake of your nationalist myths. Delchev’s, Mirsirkov’s, Gruev’s, Tatarchev’s, Hadzhinikolov’s etc… etc… words will all still be there tomorrow no matter who “recognizes” what. Countless ancient Macedonian artifacts will be still be written in Greek tomorrow too. The artifacts that list Macedonian names on Greek-only Olympic sporting events will be there too.

    Not only do nationalists like you harm Greeks with your historical absurdities but you also harm your own poor children who like you will also be tortured by their identity. All for the sake of a pack of lies promoted by some politicians with an ethnic insecurity complex.

    (Statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other future IMRO members)
    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN , independent of gender

    (Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs states one of the principles of the IMRO’s foundation)
    “The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.”

    (Hristo Tatarchev – founding member BMARC/IMRO)
    “We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria…”

    (Krste Misirkov) “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Krste Crvenkovski, President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, to Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria (May 19, 1967)
    “And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    These are the words of YOUR national heroes and prominent politicians Donna. Are they part of the conspiracy against you too?
18. Cannon says:

    July 10, 2010 at 1:05 am

    This is for Anon.
    Listen mate…..you blabber on too much…..blah blah blah…..but I don’t blame you because thats how you’ve been educated about Macedonia…..but I don’t need a history lesson…….so I’ll just comment on one of your points.
    You say “There are 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece… plus millions more Greeks than consider ancient Macedonia part of their cultural identity”…..what Macedonians are you talking about, the people from Asia Minor that first came to Macedonia in the 1920′s or the indiginous Macedonians that were already there……I think your a bit confused mate…..I’ve met plenty of people like you……they are afraid of something……what are you afraid of when you blabber on about Macedonia….obviously it’s something otherwise you wouldn’t blabber on so much…..and at the same time trying to convince yourself that Macedonia is Greek……tell me deepest thoughts.
    Their is a saying “It’s only a lie if you believe it”…….in your case….. obviously.
    Oh and just one more thing…..are you one of the decendants of the people that came from Asia Minor.
    Please make your answer simple……not you typical blah blah blah…..
    And yes….I’m Macedonian because I can’t be anything else.
    Regards
19. Cannon says:

    July 10, 2010 at 1:32 am

    Hey Nikolaos,
    Next time you have a frappe in Salonika…..think about where your family decendants are from, as they cannot be from Macedonia…….tell me where they are from and don’t lie as your nose will get bigger.
    Also, the Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..
    PS:- Grik coffee is really Turkish coffee but renamed…..just like many other things…..baklava etc etc etc……
    Hope you enjoyed your frappe…..
    And yes…..I’m Macedonian because I can’t be anything else.
    Regards
20. Bitolski says:

    July 10, 2010 at 10:23 am

    I guess the citizens of the “Former Otoman Province of Greece” who by the way are not descendants of the ancient greeks but are Albanians, Vlah and Pontic Turks and some Slavs…can not help them self’s every time Macedonia is mentioned and have to post the same cut and paste bull@#it from there Nazi government ( so called Greek) propaganda.Sick and tired from this fake nation of mixture of ethnicities who have in there mind that they are descendants of the Ancient Greeks. there is no use to reply to this morons my Macedonians…they have sold their own background to be this Modern Greek fake nation in 1832. I just wonder why did the Great Powers when they created the modern Greek state at first wanted to declare the Albanian dialect that was spoken around the village of Athen to be the constitutional language of the new state?
21. john says:

    July 10, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    @Cannon

    “lso, the Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..”

    I will let 400 accredited historians from world famouse universities such as Oxford and Cambridge explain this battle for you. It is little different than the falsified version in Fyrom and communist Yugoslavia

    “In the same way that Greeks fought one another so many times including the most famous example of the Spartans vs. the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War.

    But Philip was actually at Chaironeia on the invitation of the Delphic Amphiktyonic Council. Already in 346 B.C. he had settled the Third Sacred War in favor of the Council, and been awarded a seat on that council (where no non-Greek ever served). Now, in 338 B.C., the Amphikytonic Council called upon him again, and it is Demosthenes, the Philip-hater, who records the actual decree of invitation from the Council (De Corona 18,155).

    The two sides in the battle were totally Greek. One side (the ultimate losers) was led by Athens and Thebes which together supplied more than 60% of the forces. They were joined by Corinth, Megara, Akarnania, Phokis, Achaia, Euboia, Leukas, and Kerkyra (Demosthenes, De Corona 18.237). Note the missing: Sparta, Elis, Aigina, Epidauros, and many more.

    The other side was dominated by the Macedonians, but there were substantial numbers of Thessalians as well as Argives and Arkadians (Demosthenes, Letters 4.8). In other words, as throughout so much of their history, the Battle of Chaironeia was Greek vs. Greek.”

    http://www.macedonia-evidence.org

    This is just an other evidence that the ethnic Macedonian identity that was created in communist Yugoslavia is build up by historical fabrication. Every historical figure in the area have been falsified in Fyroms history books. Hence Bulgarians like Tsar Samuil , Delchev , Saint Naum , Kuber have became etnik Macedonians. Greeks like Alexander and Cyril have been rebranded to ethnic Macedonians.

    The question that should be asked is that in a democratic world can/should identities bee based on historical fraud? I will let a historian answer that question

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”

    George Santayana
22. john says:

    July 10, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    @Bitolski

    “by the way are not descendants of the ancient greeks but are Albanians, Vlah and Pontic Turks and some Slavs…”

    Here I give you a list of Greek Macedonians through each time period. It seems your statement is not true. Maybe you can give me a list of ethnik Macedonians from the same time periods becuase I cand find a single one! It seems the historians are right, your identity was created mainly in communist Yugoslavia

    Alexander the Great, a Greek king who hellenised Asia, Aristotle (philosopher), Poseidippus (poet, epigrammatist), Callisthenes (historian), St Sopater from Veria (1st C BC), Antipater of Thessalonica (late 1st c. BC, epigrammatic poet and governor of the city), Philippus of Thessalonica (late 1st c. AD, epigrammatic poet and compiler of the Greek Anthology), Saint Hermes (Thessaloniki, Rome 120 AD), Martyr Theodora (Thessaloniki, Rome 123 AD), Athryilatus of Thasos (1–2nd c. AD, physician), Agape, Chionia, and Irene († 304, Saints), Saint Demetrius (early 4th C), Basil I the Macedonian (811–886, Byzantine emperor, ruled 867–886, founder of the Macedonian dynasty), Nikephoros Bryennios (1062–1137, general, statesman, historian), Michael and Andreas Palaiologos (1342–1350, leaders of the Zealots’ regime of Thessalonica), Paul I of Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarch (337–339), Demophilus of Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarch (370–380), Saint Methodius (826–885, main translator of the Bible into Old Church Slavonic), Saint Cyril (827–869, creator of the Glagolithic alphabet, Christianized the Slavs), Philotheus Kokkinos (1300–1379, Ecumenical Patriarch), Matthew Blastares (c.1290- 1360,monk, canonist), Nilus Cabasilas (1298–1363, theologian), Nicholas Cabasilas (ca.1319–1391, mystic theologian), Macarius Macres (1382–1431, theologian), Isidore of Kiev, Thessaloniki, Metropolitan of Kiev (1433–1458 and Ecumenical Patriarch,1450–1453), Stobaeus (5th c. AD, Anthologist of Greek Authors), Macedonius of Thessalonica (the Consul, 6th C, Epigrammatist of Greek Anthology), John Kaminiates (904, Historian on the sack of Thessalonica by the Saracens), Saint Theodora of Arta, (Servia 1210, Arta 1280), Demetrius Triclinius (ca.1300, philologist, astronomer), Thomas Magister (ca. 1275—1325 philologist), Gregory Acindynus (1300–1348, Theologian), Demetrius Cydones(1324–1397, Scholastic theologian), Prochorus Cydones (1330–1369, Scholastic theologian), Nikephoros Choumnos 1783–1854, born in Kozani, teacher in the Greek community of Vienna and Pest, he took part in the Greek War of Independence), Minas Minoidis (born in Edessa, he taught Ancient Greek language and literature in Paris), Athanasios Stageiritis (from Stagira, Professor of Greek language at the Royal Academy in Vienna, publisher of the fortnightly literary journal “Kalliope” in Vienna from 1819 to 1821), Anastasios Michail (Member of Berlin’s Academy of Sciences), Georgios Lassanis (1793–1870, scholar and politician), Nicholaos Dragoumis (1809– 1879, politician and writer from Kastoria), Markides Pouliou (brothers from Siatista, published the first Greek newspaper Ephemeris in Vienna in(ca. 1250–1327, scholar and physicist), Konstantinos Armenopoulos (1320 – ca.1385, Jurist), John Anagnostes (1430, Historian on the capture of Thessalonica by the Ottomans), Theodorus Gaza (c. 1400 – 1475, Renaissance humanist and translator of Aristotle), Mazaris, (15th century, writer from Thessaloniki), Manuel Panselinos (painter, iconographer of Macedonian Renaissance), George Kallierges (painter), Michael Astrapas and Eutychios (iconograhers), John Staurakios, (hagiographer), Andronikos Kallistos (1400–1486, teacher of Greek literature in Bologna, Rome, Florence, Paris and London) …

    continued) Ioannis Kottounios (1572–1657, Founder the Kottounian Hellinomouseion, Professor of Philosophy in Padua), Konstantinos Kallokratos (b. 1589, Teacher and poet), Kallinikos Manios (1624–1665, founder of the first school in Veroia), Georgios Parakeimenos (director of Kozani’s school, Physician and Preacher), Sevastos Leontiadis (1690–1765, Director of Kastoria’s school), Michail Papageorgiou (1727–1796, He taught in his birthplace, Selitsa, today Eratyra, Meleniko,Vienna and Budapest), Dimitrios Karakasis (b. 1734, physician in Vienna, Larisa, Siatista, Kozani, Bucharest), Manassis Iliadis (early 18th century – 1785, born in Meleniko, he taught philosophy and physics at the Bucharest Academy), Konstantinos Michail (Philosopher, Physician and Linguist), Dimitrios Darvaris (1754- 1823, born in Kleisoura, Kastoria, publisher of a Greek grammar), Charissios Megdanis (1768–1823, born in Kozani, priest, doctor, writer), Georgios Sakellarios (1765–1838, chief physician at the court of Ali Pasha) Michail Perdikaris (1766–1828,born in Kozani, physician and scholar), Athanasios Christopoulos (1772–1847, poet, scholar and “Spokesman for foreign cases” in Wallachia), Efronios Raphael Papagiannoussi Popovits (1774–1853, born in Kozani, Scholar and Benefactor, among others of the Charta of Rigas), Grigorios Zalykis (1777–1820, Thessaloniki, writer, founder of “Ellenoglosson Xenodochion”), Georgios Rousiadis ( 1791), Ioannis Pantazidis from Krusevo (1821–1900, Professor in University of Athens in Greek literature), Margaritis Dimitsas (1829–1903, writer from Achrida), Sophocles Garbolas 1833–1911, writer, journalist, he published in 1875 the first Greek newspapers in Thessalonica, Ermis (Hermes) and Pharos tis Makedonias (Lighthouse of Macedonia)), Theodoros Natsinas (c. 1872 scholar and director of the Marasleion School of Thessaloniki).
    and many many more
23. Anon says:

    July 10, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    @cannon

    You write: “Listen mate…..you blabber on too much…..blah blah blah”

    You are one to talk. You said absolutely nothing in response to my quotes directly from the lips of your own national heroes… referencing their ethnic roots as BULGARIANS!

    Go back to listening to bizarre “historians” at Mina and Maknews rant their hatred towards Greeks. Surely it is the dirty Greek’s fault that you are in utter denial over Misirkov. Delchev et al’s words. Siurely it is the dirty Greek’s fault the communists erased your Bulgarian identity. Surely it the dirty Greeks fault you chose to speak you Slavic dialect rather than Greek…. the language of Macedonians.

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” (U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
24. Anon says:

    July 10, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    @Bitolski

    Bitol-ski… sure sounds like an ethnic Buglarian name to me.

    Well champ, there was never a place called “Former Otoman Province of Greece”. However, there was a place that was called Vardar prior to communists renaming of that region into the “People’s Republic of Macedonia” in 1944.
    http://www.danstopicals.com/fyrom.htm

    Perhaps you can explain to the world why Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) said to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) on May 19, 1967…

    “And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    You go on to slander Greeks as “Nazis”. I seem to recall Greeks actually fought the Nazis. I also seem to recall it was the head of IMRO Ivan Mihailov and many others in IMRO that joined Bulgaria and the Axis in occupying Macedonia Greece during WW2 no? The same IMRO head Ivan Mihailov that colluded with the SS no? (notice the picture of Hitler along with the map of “united Macedonia”)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg

    You write: “Sick and tired from this fake nation of mixture of ethnicities”

    No ethnicity is a pure race you fricken fascist. In every nation and people on earth mixing occurs and people eventually identify with the common culture. YOu think Germans didn’t mix with Poles, Scandinavians, French, Hungarians and many many others? You think the english didn’t mix with Irish, scottish, french, Germans and others? Get a grip man.

    We are Greeks because of our location. We are Greeks because of our culture. We are Greeks because of the balance of our history. We are Greeks because of our very language. We are Greeks because we identify with the culture and heroes. If some Greek doesn’t see himself as Greek, absolutely no one is stopping him from calling himself something else.

    So how do you demonstrate you are “Macedonian” other than ranting “I am macedonian”?

    Do you attempt to speak Greek? Hell no. You fear the Greek language.

    Do you attempt to keep an accurate record of ancient Macedonia? Negative. According to your “historians” ancient Macedonians weren’t self-identifying Greeks.

    Do you call yourself Greek like ancient Macedonians did? Of course not. You hate Greeks.

    Do you give cities Greek name? Since when the Macedonian name for Thessaloniki “Solun”?

    From what I can tell ultra-nationalists like you care absolutely nothing for Macedonia. What you care about is replacing your ethnic insecurity complex with megalomania and satiating your hatred of Greeks.
25. Bitolski says:

    July 11, 2010 at 9:14 am

    @Anon
    You wrote: “We are Greeks because of our location. We are Greeks because of our culture. We are Greeks because of the balance of our history. We are Greeks because of our very language. We are Greeks because we identify with the culture and heroes. If some Greek doesn’t see himself as Greek, absolutely no one is stopping him from calling himself something else.”

    Thats all good…now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you.

    I don’t have to prove anything to you of how I feel and who I am. I know.
    The problem is if you know who you really are?
    You can brag on and on as much as you like, we were, we are and we will be Macedonian and the only thing that you can do about it is continue with you copy and paste bull@#it and try to convince your selfs that you really are who you claim to be. Good luck.
    Macedonia for the Macedonians.
    Anon get a life man…there is nothing you can do about it. The earlier you come to terms that we the Macedonians exist the better for everybody to move on and use our mental energy in doing positive things.
    This answer goes for the rest of the so called “Greeks” on this page.
    I just feel sorry for you guys…thats all!
26. Bitolski says:

    July 11, 2010 at 9:23 am

    To all the so called “greeks” on this page…please read the book:
    “That Greece might still be free” from William St. Clare
    books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1906924007…
    Read it first and then if you have something to say post it in your own words and not cut and paste. Have fun reading…trust me you will enjoy it.
27. Bitolski says:

    July 11, 2010 at 9:37 am

    To my ‘greek’ friends..please also read the following book:
    The Greek struggle for independence, 1821-1833 By Douglas Dakin
28. Cannon says:

    July 11, 2010 at 11:25 am

    You mention Bulagrians……we are not Bulagrians as we from Macedonia…..remembering we fought for an idependant Macedonia…..like British Statesman William Gladstone suggested way back on January 19th 1897…..Macedonia for Macedonians……he didn’t say Macedonia for the Bulagrians………………I can go on and on………
    BUT
    Anon…..mate…..your blabbering on again mate……and havn’t answered my question…..ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..what ethnicity runs through your veins….
    the truth for once will be nice.
    Also, if Macedonia is Greek as you suggest……the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..and don’t fill me up with the shit that George Santayana is saying……
29. Cannon says:

    July 11, 2010 at 11:33 am

    George Santayana……you’ve got your opinion and have always been against the Macedonian ethnicity……I already know what your like…..
    All I can suggest to you is get off your high horse…..the world doesn’t revolve around Greece and the Greek schooling system has also brainwashed your mind……
    WHAT IS YOUR ETHNICITY GEORGE…..you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity…..what are you George……where are your decendants from George…..
30. Cannon says:

    July 11, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Anon and George,
    WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID
31. Cannon says:

    July 11, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Anon and George,
    WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF when the word Macedonia or Macedonians is mentioned……
32. john says:

    July 11, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    @Cannon

    “Thats all good…now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you”

    I provided with a list of historical Greek macedonians. So the it should be easy for you to provide one yourself. Or is it true what accredited historians writes. Your ancestors where freely determined Bulgarians.It was in communist Yugoslavia Tito promoted a ethnik Macedonian ethnicity and the region vardar was renamed to Macedonia. He had two aims 1, disconnect Bulgarians in Yugoslavia to their motherland Bulgarian 2. Create a reason to start claiming the territory Greek Macedonia

    The western allies where protesting against the creation of a new identity with aggresive intentions against Greece:

    “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

    Accredited historians knows the slav Macedonian identity was very recent created. It has not existed for thousands of years according to ultra naionalist in Fyrom:

    “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity [...] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one”

    Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999

    The historians also describes very clearly how the history of this new identity was falsified. Basically all Bulgarian historic figures was renamed to “Macedonians”. Today Fyroms ultra nationalist (incl Fyroms government) have gone one step furthur and also added ancient Greek and Egyptian history(Claiming their slavic/Bulgarian language is ancient and written on the Rosetta stone). Of course any of this is supported by accredited historians

    “The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun).
    The obviously plagiarized historical argument of the Macedonian nationalists for a separate Macedonian ethnicity could be supported only by linguistic reality, and that worked against them until the 1940s. Until a modern Macedonian literary language was mandated by the socialist-led partisan movement from Macedonia in 1944, most outside observers and linguists agreed with the Bulgarians in considering the vernacular spoken by the Macedonian Slavs as a western dialect of Bulgarian. ”

    Dennis P. Hupchick, “Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe”, Palgrave Macmillan, 1995.

    Jana is fabrication of history considered good-neighbourly relations?
33. john says:

    July 11, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    @Cannon

    “WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF when the word Macedonia or Macedonians is mentioned…”

    Our concerns have been the same since Tito created a new macedonian identity in communist Yugoslavs. It is not soemthing new. It has going on for decades:

    “For Macedonia to be recognized as an independent state, it would be necessary to change its name [...] It is historically proven that the Yugoslavian Democracy of Macedonia was created by Stalin, Tito and Dimitrov, aiming at the stealthy removal of a large part of Northern Greece. This Democracy was used during the period 1944-1949 in order to destabilise Greece.”

    Thomas Niles, US Ambassador, statement on the 23rd June 1992 to the SubCommittee of US Congress, Eleutherotypia newspaper, June 24, 1992

    Because of aggressive intentions against Greece

    “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec.

    Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these “radical Slavic factions” decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world…”

    T.J. Winnifrith, “Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments”, Duckworth,1995.

    Personaly I am afraid that historical fabrication that is created in Fyrom becomes a standard in the world. Then we are back in Nazi Germany where governments can create historical fabrications just to usurp unrelated countries history, identity and land. Then we have an uncivilazed world where we dont learn from our past. That would be scary
34. Anon says:

    July 12, 2010 at 12:06 am

    Bitolski says: “now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you”

    a. you are not located physically in ancient Macedonia (the original part is located in Greece)

    b. Your langauge has virtually nothing to do with the Greek spoken by ancient “Macedonians.

    c. Your national heros used to freely self identify as “ethnic bulgarians” not “ethnic Macedonians”

    You write: “Macedonia for the Macedonians”

    I agree completely. And ancient Paeonia for ethnic Bulgarians like you.

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
35. Cannon says:

    July 12, 2010 at 7:08 am

    Anon,
    I’ve heard it all before…….blah blah blah……it’s Greek propaganda…..just like it has been for the last 200 years…..
    ……and you havn’t answered my question…..ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..what ethnicity runs through your veins….
    the truth for once will be nice.
36. Cannon says:

    July 12, 2010 at 7:13 am

    John,
    Where did you pop out from…….trying to deny the Macedonian ethnicity….
    WHAT IS YOUR ETHNICITY JOHN…..you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity…..what are you John…..where are your decendants from…..
37. Anon says:

    July 12, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    @Cannon says:

    And I’ve heard your “greek propaganda” argument from countless Risto clones that sound exactly like you. Not only are you a hypocrite that denies our identity identity (since your ancient Macedonian state propaganda requires it) but you cowardly hide from the very real reality of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian roots.

    Instead of changing the subject in desperation again why not explain to us (and the historians of the world) what your own national hero Misirkov, Delchev, et al exactly meant by words suggesting on many many occasions that their roots were ethnic Bulgarian?

    Krste Misirkov:

    “We are BULGARIANS, more BULGARIANS than the BULGARIANS in BULGARIAN themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian BULGARIANS”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves BULGARIANS.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    “We did indeed call ourselves “BULGARIANS” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which EVERYONE INCLUDING THEMSELVES DESCRIBES AS THE BULGARIAN nation, two smaller units might be formed: a BULGARIAN and a Macedonian one?”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “We are BULGARIAN more than the BULGARIANS in BULGARIA. The population of Skopje is pure BULGARIAN. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our BULGARIAN consciousness.”
    http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between BULGARIANS and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as BULGARIAN the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and BULGARIA there was no mention of the BULGARIAN Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a BULGARIAN, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a BULGARIAN national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “The first objection — that a MACEDONIAN SLAV NATIONALITY HAS NEVER EXISTED existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Gotse Delchev:

    “We are BULGARIANS” (In his own handwriting)
    http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/images/stories/history/makedonia/2009_A/letter.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotse_Delchev

    “Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are BULGARIANS and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan… ” (Gotse Delchev in letter to Nikola Malashevski, Jan. 5 1899)

    (Excerpt from the 1896 statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev)
    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

    Gruev, Hristo Tatarchev, Petar Pop Arsov and other future IMRO members were part of the BULGARIAN-ONLY BMARC no?.

    Or let me guess. You are you going to change the subject and claim it is my “propaganda”?
38. Anon says:

    July 12, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    @Cannon… the ethnic cleanser writes:

    “you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity”
    “what ethnicity runs through your veins”

    Further evidence “Cannon” has a fascist’s view of identity and is out to ethnically cleanse Greeks for the sake of his nationalists myths. He obviously equates the word “race” = “ethnicity” (a Greek word ironically). What about culture? What about history? What about language? What about location? What exactly do you have in common with ancient Macedonians dear Cannon… that your Bulgarian relatives don’t? How do you demonstrate you Macedonian identity because just spewing endless hatred of Greeks because of the atrocities committed on your minds by your communist grandfathers?

    For instance, is any one stopping your from speaking Greek… the language of Macedonians? Seems to me you are against anti-Macedonian culture and much prefer your Bulgarian culture. You are the one’s that refer to Thessaloniki as “Solun” right? Rather odd you’d prefer a Bulgarian name over the original Macedonian one no?

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made. ” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    “We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”
    (Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician – “Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia” – A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
39. cannon says:

    July 13, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Anon……..gee you can go on…….I’ll make it simple for you…..as you have been avoiding my question…..
    ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..
    the truth for once will be nice.
40. Phillip says:

    July 13, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Very short – the article is coprehensive and makes the point on what does good-neighbourly relations mean, and what does not.

    In the case of Greece their is a manipulation attempt to picture in white the EU-member country as always the good neighbour, and to picture in black Macedonia as non-EU-member state as always being the bad neighbour. Wrong !

    Macedonia is as good as Greece, and in addition being more mature and responsible in the context of the regional stability and cooperation.
41. Anon says:

    July 13, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    @Cannon

    Wow. What a surprise. The wannabe ethnic cleanser changes the subject yet again when I point all your own national heroes admitted their ethnic BULGARIAN roots.

    That’s the fundamental difference between Greece and FYROM. 19th century Greeks actually believed themselves to be related to ancient Greeks-as did the Greco-Roman Byzantines who studied Greek philosophy, spoke Greek, and lived in the region of Greece (as opposed to say China). While the idea of pure races are nationalist myths, FIVE HUNDRED YEARS ago, well before the conspiracy theorists claim someone convinced us we were related to ancient Greeks, Byzantine scholar Georgius Gemistus Plethon wrote “we’re Greeks by genus, as our language and education testifies”. He was hardly alone.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

    By comparison, the “ethnic Macedonian” identity is built on conscious intentional fraud.

    e.g. (the words of YOUR leaders)
    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    e.g.
    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    e.g.
    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    e.g.
    “And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.” – Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    e.g.
    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    e.g.
    Krste Misirkov: “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    e.g.
    Krste Misirkov: “The first objection — that A MACEDONIAN SLAV NATIONALITY HAS NEVER EXISTED — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    ….

    What Greek-haters and wanna-be ethnic cleansers like you simply don’t get dear Cannon, is Greeks could be the descendents of toads, and it would still not make an iota of difference in this dispute. Ancient Macedonia is located squarely in Greece not in ancient Peonia. Ancient macedonians spoke Greek-not your former Bulgarian dialect. Countless Ancient Macedonian artifacts that show the Greek character of the people aren’t going anywhere.

    It sure is easy for other people to “recognize” you. Not their countries on the line when it isn’t their countries being called “occupied” by a neighbouring state. Frankly, you Bulgarians bizarrely calling yourselves “ethnic Macedonians” out of the blue is roughly akin to calling yourselves “ethnic mayans” and proclaiming Mexico your “occupied” homeland. The irony is you claim persecution by Greeks for calling out your state fabrications, but your are the one’s ethnically cleansing yourselves (by assimilating Bulgarians into “ethnic Macedonians”)

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,” (FYROM national hero Krste Misirkov)
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    (Let me guess. You are going to change the subject again? Check back tomorrow to see if Misirkov’s words have changed.)
42. Anon says:

    July 13, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    @Phillip

    You write: “in addition being more mature and responsible in the context of the regional stability and cooperation.”

    Rubbish. Allowing FYROM to create an entirely fabricated ethnic identity has only destabilized the Balkans. Despite 20 years that have gone by, widespread recognition, massive financial support for FYROM … it still has extremely poor relations with Bulgarians, Albanians, and Greeks (including virtually every minority within its boarders).

    The best solution would be if FYROM were eventually divided between Serbia, Albania and Bulgaria. This way the people in FYROM could celebrate their real ethnic roots, rather than the bizarre and dangerous historical narrative their current regime is trying to craft.

    Sacrificing the security of Greeks (especially Macedonians) to appease the break-away former Yugoslav republic’s threats of violence amounts to supporting blackmail.
43. cannon says:

    July 14, 2010 at 12:45 am

    Anon,
    Because you have been avoiding my question I will assume……in fact I won’t assume…..I know……YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..so…..you are not “GREEK” or “GREEK MACEDONIAN” or what ever you want to call yourself……I don’t know what you are but you are probably a Vlah or a Turkish Orthodox christian……I’ve seen your type before as my mum’s family is from the Greek Occupied part of Macedonia…..
    You have just proved to everyone that YOU are a racist, hypocrit, liar……and most of all a facist of the Greek schooling system……
    PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS RESPONSE…….I DON’T WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU ANYMORE……
44. john says:

    July 14, 2010 at 2:24 am

    @cannon

    “Turkish Orthodox christian……”

    Once again you are posting ultra nationalistic ideas that have no base in history. The Greeks lived in asia minor before the Ottomans\Turks came from asia and took over. They where occupied by the Turks in the same way as your ancestors
    (that where self determined Bulgarians) where. Fyroms territory was occupied by the Turks during 550 years(250 more years then the Greeks from south of Greece) in the same way as the Greeks in asia minor. So if you dont call your own ancestors for “Turkish Orthodox christian” then it means you are driven by pure propaganda, ignorance and rascism. Something you have incomon with hundreds of thousands of extreme nationalist in Fyrom.
45. Anon says:

    July 14, 2010 at 4:49 am

    @john

    “Cannon” is in complete denial over his Bulgarian heritage (why he keeps changing the subject and ignoring evidence of our Greco-Roman Byzantine ancestors that considered themselves related to Greeks prior to Greece’s creation.

    The entire foundation of his “Macedonian” identity is essentially based on trying to deny Greeks their identity. In my opinion, he, and those like him, are literally trying to ethnically cleanse Greeks. (since the existence of Greeks blows a hole in their “Macedonian” identity.

    Those that claim it’s just a petty dispute over a name don’t have a clue what they are talking about. FYROM’s current government is creating a very dangerous situation in the Balkans for both FYROM moderates, for Albanians, for Bulgarians and for Greeks. By trying to portray themselves as related to ancient Macedonians the people who currently live in ancient Paeonia are trying to suggest various other Macedonia’s are their “occupied” homeland.

    It’s not Greece’s fault Yugoslavians couldn’t live with each other. It’s not Greece’s fault the communists did this to their minds. No ethnic group should have to face such open prejudice and threats to their territorial integrity. The blindness many have shown over FYROM’s behavior (e.g. no one says anything about the endless “united Macedonia” references), the habit of selecting only Greeks that call FYROM “Macedonians” for media interviews (e.g. not even one major news outlet has interviewed Miller’s group?) , and the major omissions in reporting FYROM’s history (e.g. The NY Times “forgetting” to mention their own newspaper reported Delchev’s death as a Bulgarian, “forgetting” to mention the US flatly denied the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”, etc…)…

    … all add up to clear evidence in my mind that Greeks are facing severe widespread prejudice these days. (I’m sad to say even amongst some that claim to support “human rights”) Instead of defending Greece from the obvious nationalist fabrications (championed by communist thugs like Tito and Stalin that murdered countless people)… some apparently are trying to sweep this under the rug by putting our historical claims at par. (in effect supporting potential ethnic cleansers in FYROM)

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
46. Achilles says:

    July 31, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    The most practical issue of the dispute is the commercial use of the name.

    I come from Thessaloniki. If I want to launch a product or a service under the name Macedonian {e.g. cheese or wine) in the international market, and a professional from Skopje does the same, I guess that both of us would create a confusion to our potential clients.

    So, let’s start from this point. If Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language”, and if her compatriots share her point of view, it would be in our common interest to arrange this dispute, by leaving the use of the brand name Macedonia to the Greeks and by giving the brand name Slavomacedonian to the Slavomacedonians.

    On this basis, we can automatically end this dispute once and for all. Such a composite name would solve the issue and lower the tension. I know that it will not be easy, but it’s the only way to be done, at least to my opinion.

    Even we like it or not, our countries must learn to live together and this can be done only through cooperation and friendship. At least in these times of crisis and instability.
47. Justice says:

    August 14, 2010 at 1:32 am

    Hi Achilles,
    Finally someone from Greece has some common sense to say “even we like it or not, our countries must learn to live together and this can be done only through cooperation and friendship. At least in these times of crisis and instability.”
    I agree with the above however I do not agree with you on calling us slavomacedonian.
    How dare you say that, remember who came to Macedonia in 1912, it was not us Macedonians, we were already there, it was YOU that came, invaded and partitioned, it was YOU that took our land and done bad things things to my family and people…..YOU think we forget…..I bet your family is not even originally from Thessaloniki, just like the ones that live near my village, and everywhere in Macedonia, and you want us to change our name. I know a lot of families where the old people in the family didn’t even speak Greek, they spoke Turkish, and listened to Turkish music, even nowdays the music is the same, but the words are in Greek, but slowly the Turkish tongue is disappearing, being replaced by Greek, and you want us to change our name.
    You change your name as you are not Macedonian, but an imposter that is currently living in occuppied territory……MACEDONIA……
    If you want to call your cheese Macedonian, do so, because the cheese IS from Macedonia and so IS the cheese from the Republic of Macedonia, WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE, remember the country used to be whole pre 1912, I even knew my grandmother that lived through these times, and she told us stories, or havn’t you been taught this at school.
    We are from a village just outside of Salonika, however we are the same ethnicity as the people across the border in the Republic of Macedonia. We are all Macedonian.
    Achilles, what do you call my family.
    STOP allowing Athens from totally destroy YOUR mother tongue and culture, because if you are not a Macedonian from Thessasoniki, then you are from Asia Minor…..and finally stop the BULLSHIT POLITICS with me, as I have never meet a Greek that is indigineous to Macedonia, only the Macedonians that want to be Greeks, and there plenty of them poor souls.
    Athens has tried to eliminate our language and culture, without success, but obviously has succeeded with yours.
    POLITICS IT STINKS
    My response to you is not politics, but the truth.
48. Anon says:

    August 31, 2010 at 6:40 am

    Justice says : “My response to you is not politics, but the truth.:

    If you were remotely interested in the truth you’d be asking yourself what Krste Misirkov meant by these words. I think we both know except one of us is a immoral liar that pretends he doesn’t.

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.
    http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm