The Greek-Macedonian name dispute – good-neighbourly relations?

Greece’s continued violation of bilateral and international agreements with respect to Macedonia calls into question its commitment, and that of the international community, to good-neighbourly relations in the Western Balkans.

By Jana Lozanoska

Our friends and indirect mediators in the name dispute – the EU, NATO and the USA, but also the Greek representatives themselves – constantly emphasise and insist on observing good-neighbourly relations. Moreover, this principle was formally incorporated in the conclusions of the Council of the European Union, held in December 2009.

The principle of good-neighbourly relations is one of the pillars of international relations and it can be traced back to the United Nations Charter, where it is stipulated as one of the purposes of the organization. In addition to the UN Charter, this principle can also be found in several other important resolutions and documents brought by the international community.

Resolution 817 of the Security Council, which introduces the provisional name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM) even states that ‘the differences over the name need to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region’. The 1995 Interim Accord between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece contains a provision which is directly related to good-neighbourly relations:’ the Parties (i.e., the Republic of Macedonia and Greece) shall encourage the development of friendly and good-neighbourly relations between them and shall reinforce their economic cooperation…’.

Evidently, the principle of good-neighbourly relations is at the basis of international law and international relations, but what does this principle actually cover? To answer this, it is necessary to analyse its content, which is not really apparent as it has not been clearly defined. The 1970 UN General Assembly Declaration (2625) on Friendly Relations and Cooperation Among States lays down, for the first time, the prerequisites for good-neighbourly relations among states, which include refraining from the use of force or threats to use force, the peaceful settlement of disputes, non-intervention in matters within the domestic jurisdiction of states, cooperation amongst the respective states, an equal right to self-determination, and the principle of the sovereign equality of all states.

In particular, respecting good-neighbourly relations is a logical consequence of the prohibition on the use of force in international law (Article 2.4 of the Charter of the UN), which many authors consider to be a jus cogens norm. It is a norm from which no derogation is permitted, except in clearly defined cases, like the right to self-defence in the event of an armed attack by another country (Article 51 of the Charter of the UN). The upper limit, i.e., the upper threshold, when it becomes clear that the principle of good-neighbourly relations has been violated is when there are cases of unlawful use of force against the territorial integrity and political sovereignty of a country. Thus, any unlawful use of force – regardless of whether it is a border incident, or an act of aggression – consequently violates all of the aforementioned elements of the principle on good neighbourly relations.

It is more difficult to answer the question as to what constitutes the lower limit of disregard for the principle of good-neighbourly relations, not taking into account, naturally, the threat or prohibition on the use of force. Does the violation of good-neighbourly relations entail disregard of one or of several of the elements, i.e., principles, contained in the Declaration (2625) of the UN General Assembly? To answer this question, one would need to analyse each element separately – a lengthy and demanding exercise beyond the scope of this paper.

In order to simplify the whole debate, one should analyse briefly Greece’s and Macedonia’s approach during the process of the name dispute, but also the attitude of the international community in correlation with the principle of good-neighbourly relations. Greece’s behaviour and the international community’s insistence on good-neighbourly relations, is obviously rather complex as Greece has been flagrantly violating bilateral and international agreements, in continuity. These violations include a trade embargo, preventing the Republic of Macedonia’s bid to join NATO and interfering in domestic matters by insisting to change the name of the country and by denying the right to self-determination. This violates several of the elements that are at the basis of good-neighbourly relations. The actions of the international community are not to be underestimated and they are quite supportive of Greece (for more on this issue, please click here).

The conclusions of the Council of the European Union from December 2009, which concern the Republic of Macedonia being granted a date for the start of accession talks with the EU, contained the following eye-catching phrase – ‘maintaining good neighbourly relations, including a negotiated and mutually acceptable solution on the name issue (…) remains essential’.

Several things can be noted from this sentence. Firstly, that the EU links good-neighbourly relations to reaching a mutually-acceptable solution to the name dispute. This element – a ‘mutually accepted solution’ to the name issue – does not exist in the UN’s Declaration on Friendly Relations, but, nevertheless, the principle of good-neighbourly relations is being extended to cover this criterion, in this case, due to pressure from Greece. It is questionable how much and whether this element is part of the elements of the principle of good-neighbourly relations among states. Or, what is more important, whether and to what extent it stems from them.

In addition, it is stated that this mutual solution to the name issue should be reached through negotiations. Although negotiations are a means for the peaceful settlement of disputes, and, therefore form part of the principle of good-neighbourly relations, they are not exclusive. The Charter of the UN prescribes the different methods for the peaceful settlement of disputes. Besides negotiations, they include – mediation, enquiry, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement before the International Court of Justice (the case initiated by Macedonia against Greece falls under this category) etc.

Therefore, this rigid conclusion by the Council of the European Union is ill-founded. First, it is because the ‘mutually acceptable solution to the name’ has nothing to do with good-neighbourly relations. Quite the opposite, it violates it, especially the principle of non-interference in the domestic matters of states, the principle of sovereign equality and self-determination. This has been concluded on several occasions by various authors. Second, it is because negotiations are not the only means for peacefully settling disputes.

Finally, one should analyse the conduct of the Republic of Macedonia and whether, if at all, it has violated at any occasion the principle of good-neighbourly relations. A retrospective analysis of Republic of Macedonia’s position concerning this issue leads to a contrary conclusion, i.e., that there is a sense of inferiority and even approbation of Greece’s continuous violations towards Macedonia (not taking any counter measures against the trade embargo, changing the Constitution, changing the national flag, consenting to negotiations over our own name etc). One might say that the newly-erected sculptures and the renaming of the airports constitute a violation of the principle of good-neighbourly relations. However, an accurate formal analysis of the content of the principle of good-neighbourly relations cannot lead to such a conclusion for the simple reason that historical and cultural heritage is not the exclusive right of a single state, but of humankind as a whole, and therefore, these actions do not violate any of the components of the principle of good-neighbourly relations among states.

Jana Lozanoska is director of the Divison for Applied Policy Research at the Euro-Balkan Institute in Skopje.

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113 Responses

  1. Henry Roberts Jr.

    Can this article inhibit anymore propagandistic tendencies?
    Almost every paragraph written here is completely misleading with no idea of the current situation. I’ve been involved in these “talks”, and your ignorance is dangerous when coupled with your ignorance.

    Kind Regards,
    H

  2. Anon

    This article is so one sided in its reporting it comes across as prejudice. Where is the mention that the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s (aka Vardar upto communist dictator’s Tito’s 1944 renaming) current leadership encourages their citizens to:

    (a) see themselves as related to ancient Macedonians (seeing as people like Lozanoska call former ethnic Bulgarians “Macedonians” now. This clearly is in direct contradiction with past statements by FYROM’s own elected public officials. (and violates the intern agreement to not use hostile propaganda or attempt to usurp the other nations history)

    We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
    (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    Krste Misirkov – “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    ‘Macedonia’ (FYROM) was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The ‘Macedonian’ language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these ‘radical Slavic factions’ decided to live with their myths and lies…”
    (T.J. Winnifrith, British academic, “Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments”, Duckworth, 1995)

    “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.”
    (Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”)

    “Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD”
    http://www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm

    etc.. etc.. etc…
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

    (b) In the FYROM government treating history as a coloring book in this manner and effectively changing FYROM’s ethnic identity (since now the are the “real ancient Macedonians”) it has lead to constant irredentist “united Macedonia” references in their media, amongst their citizens, and in even their leadership. (despite the fact, virtually all of ancient Macedonia is actually located in Greece)

    (current sitting PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of a map showing 1/3 of Greece annexed to his own country)
    http://www.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg

    (endless references to “united Macedonia” by FYROM news, government, and self-proclaimed “human rights” organization)
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=united+Macedonia&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4692a3ff86a6f392

    In my opinion, even those that claim to support human rights, in practice can stand for oppression at times. They use the term “human rights” as a smoke cream to manipulate the well meaning. In practice, many are simply uttering their own personal biases on issues.

  3. Donna

    In respone to Mr. Henry Roberts Jr: There is nothing misleading, Mr.Roberts. The Author is not stating her opinion – she is disclosing the
    facts as they are written in legal and binding documents that most people
    are not aware of. You are implying that it may have nothing to do with the
    “current situation” and that further confirms that the rules do not apply
    to Greese. Further, Mr. Roberts, it is you that is ignorant and should be
    removed from any “talks” as your misinformation is dangerous.

  4. Daniel S.

    The so-called name dispute can be characterized as a political move on behalf of the Greek state to create impossible conditions for the Macedonian side to fulfill! Should Macedonia attempt to placate Greece’s demands further, by the seemingly innocuous move of “changing the name of the state”, this would irrevocably change the Macedonian identity, to the point where the Macedonian people would no longer have any claim to any of their historical and cultural attributes; it would in effect, be the end of the Macedonian people and their right, not only to a state of their own, but to their right to exist at all! The “Greek” argument on “historic” grounds is entirely baseless, given that modern Greece is simply a collection of assimilated peoples, whose political mentors, ie; western Europe created Greece for political/strategic reasons. Their full frontal assault on the Macedonian identity is a brutal attack on the sovereignty of the Macedonian people and state, and makes a mockery of international law, as Ms. Lozanoska clearly points out!

  5. Russell A.

    If this was an essay by a 2nd year university student, it would only just pass. For an MA, it would fail. The premise is wrong, too much speculation, arbitrary and superficial reading of course manuals, and especially, the article has been led by the conclusion rather than the other way round with biased presentation of the two sides. Finally, disregard as to how international organisations of peer status relate to each other.
    But since you actually hold a director’s position in some institute (heavens above), I need to add that the comments bear no relation to this my actual evaluation of the Macedonian issue and the actors involved.

  6. Boris

    @Daniel S
    You wrote:
    ”this would irrevocably change the Macedonian identity, to the point where the Macedonian people would no longer have any claim to any of their historical and cultural attributes”

    Greece lets FyroMacedonians claim their history. Their true history to be precise.
    What is the Macedonian identity the Greeks ask the FYromians?
    What are their historical and cultural attributes?

    Ancient Macedonians were of Doric decent, and identified themselves as Greeks. That is done, over, fact.

    Macedonia is a region, not an ethnic identity any more.
    FYRoMacedonians want to be called Macedonians. How will we separate them from us, Greek Macedonians?
    How are we supposed to react, as Greeks, when some newborn state that wants to be called Macedonia, and blatantly encompases ancien Greek Macedonian heroes in the prosses?
    When they come out with United Macedonia slogans, blame Greeks for genocide and land occupation and so forth?

    All we say is, acept your history, you are Slavs, your identity springs from Bulgaria, and the concept Macedonian etnicity is a communist era ‘weapon’ used for geopolitical purpuses in the past.
    Btw, it failed..

    Anyway, accet their history, leave oir history alone, and move on.
    We have other cookies to crumble than spend out time with this sad issue.

  7. Its a known fact that Macedonia and its Macedonian ethnic race has been split and occupied 1913 by “Greece” , Bulgaria , Serbia and Macedonia . Its also a fact that 1913 onwards especially 1920’s there was a settlment program where the “Greek” Settler government has dumped millions of “Greek” settlers in the occupied territories of Macedonian as a result of the population exchages from Turkey and Asia Minor ( equivalent to the same thing that the Jewish government is doing with the Palestinians)
    Its as simple as this :- “Greek” settlers have nothing to do with the Macedonian name or its ancient history . You’re SETTLERS. Just because your a settler and have been born in the occupied territories of Macedonia 1913 onwards DOES NOT MAKE YOU MACEDONIAN OR GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO STEAL MACEDONIAN HISTORY. I do not see Jewish Settlers in the occupied territories calling themselves “Palestinians” or ” Jewish Palestinians” do you ?
    Youre settlers in Macedonian occupied territory and nothing else , Your “Greek” roots actually are traced back in Turkey or Asia Minor (FACT).SO STOP STEALIANG MACEDONIAN HISTORY !

  8. iceman

    Its a known fact that Macedonia and its Macedonian ethnic race has been split and occupied 1913 by “Greece” , Bulgaria , Serbia and Macedonia . Its also a fact that 1913 onwards especially 1920’s there was a settlment program where the “Greek” Settler government has dumped millions of “Greek” settlers in the occupied territories of Macedonian as a result of the population exchages from Turkey and Asia Minor ( equivalent to the same thing that the Jewish government is doing with the Palestinians)
    Its as simple as this :- “Greek” settlers have nothing to do with the Macedonian name or its ancient history . You’re SETTLERS. Just because your a settler and have been born in the occupied territories of Macedonia 1913 onwards DOES NOT MAKE YOU MACEDONIAN OR GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO STEAL MACEDONIAN HISTORY. I do not see Jewish Settlers in the occupied territories calling themselves “Palestinians” or ” Jewish Palestinians” do you ?
    Youre settlers in Macedonian occupied territory and nothing else , Your “Greek” roots actually are traced back in Turkey or Asia Minor (FACT).

  9. iceman

    Its a known fact that Macedonia and its Macedonian ethnic race has been split and occupied 1913 by “Greece” , Bulgaria , Serbia and Macedonia . Its also a fact that 1913 onwards especially 1920’s there was a settlment program where the “Greek” Settler government has dumped millions of “Greek” settlers in the occupied territories of Macedonian as a result of the population exchages from Turkey and Asia Minor ( equivalent to the same thing that the Jewish government is doing with the Palestinians)
    Its as simple as this :- “Greek” settlers have nothing to do with the Macedonian name or its ancient history . You’re SETTLERS. Just because your a settler and have been born in the occupied territories of Macedonia 1913 onwards DOES NOT MAKE YOU MACEDONIAN OR GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO STEAL MACEDONIAN HISTORY. I do not see Jewish Settlers in the occupied territories calling themselves “Palestinians” or ” Jewish Palestinians” do you ?

  10. iceman

    Youre settlers in Macedonian occupied territory and nothing else , Your “Greek” roots actually are traced back in Turkey or Asia Minor (FACT).SO STOP STEALIANG MACEDONIAN HISTORY !

  11. Anon

    @Daniel

    FYROM’s own national heros are on record calling themselves ethnic Bulgarians to a man. Only a decade ago FYROM’s sacred identity did not include ancient Macedonia according to its own politicians. Suddenly they are related to ancient Macedonians?

    Earth to Daniel. No nation on earth is ethnic ethnically pure. Your racist 19th century views of identity belong in the 19th century. No nation or people on earth would be safe from such spurious claims using racial arguments. Furthermore your pathetic attempts erase to the Greek ethnic identity by placing it in quotes shows just how much you are filling with hypocrisy and bigotry.

  12. Anon

    @Daniel

    If you were remotely interested in preserving the identity of the people FYROM (rather than spreading hatred of what you term “Greeks” and blaming them for the actions of ruthless communist dictators) you wouldn’t hide from the facts.

    We are Bulgarians” (ethnic BULGARIAN IMRO leader Gotse Delchev)
    http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/images/stories/history/makedonia/2009_A/letter.jpg

    NY Times reports Delchev’s death as a BULGARIAN.
    http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2009/02/25/evidence-about-the-bulgarian-leader-goce-delchev/

    Krste Misirkov
    —————
    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    “there were certain people who considered that the existence of such a society was quite unnecessary because there was no exclusively Macedonian nationality in Macedonia – only Serbs and Bulgarians – and since there were already Serb and Bulgarian student societies in St. Petersburg there was no need for a Macedonian one as well.”
    http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm

    “Is it even possible now to bring about the national unification of the Macedonians when in Macedonia we have several nationalities and not just one, and when there is no separate Macedonian Slav nation?”
    http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm

    “Come what may, our separation from the Bulgarians…”
    http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm
    p://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “there was only one incontrovertible truth: that the Macedonian Slavs were Macedonians and Slavs”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “They use this fact – that the people of Macedonia are described variously as Serbs, Greeks, and Bulgarians”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which everybody including themselves describes as the Bulgarian nation, two smaller units might be formed: a Bulgarian and a Macedonian one?”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.”
    http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

    “The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[…] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_re2.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

  13. Anon

    @Daniel

    Even the former PM of FYROM recently came forward and admitted FYROM nationals are spreading lies far-and-wide in the media. You “forget” to mention that part eh?

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    The historical facts will not change no matter who recognizes what. The countless ancient Macedonian artifacts in Pella Greece continue to be written in various dialects of Greek. The modern and ancient regions of self-proclaimed Macedonia are not even the same. FYROM is primarily located in what was once called PAENOIA. The original acient Macedonia is located entirely in Greece. While it is true ancient Paoenia was conquered by ancient Macedonians, so was much of Asia. Bulgarians, Turks, Israeli, Syrians, and many other nations don’t seem to find an urge to create friction by naming themselves “ethnic Macedonians”. FYROM nationalists speak a language was modified by communists from Bulgarian dialect into a “Macedonian” one.

    However, FYROM did use to be part of the Roman Empire. So why don’t FYROM nationalists claim to be “ethnic Romans” then? Claim their Slavic language “Latin”. Claim Julius Caesar their national hero? Claim Italy was “occupying” a divided Rome. Claim Italians were oppressing “”ethnic Romans” in Rome. I’m sure Italians would be thrilled by such bizarre and dangerous behavior.

  14. Peter

    Jana Lozanoska is right in her comment.Mr. Roberts,you are off base,but not to any surprise.First,let me tell you that I am from the Aegean Macedonia and I know a lot more than you might think.Since 1913,the partition of Macedonia,Greece systematicly violated our Human Rights by not allowing us to speak our own language,to prey in churches in our own only understood language.Greece changed our names,toponyms etc.Furtheremore Mr.Roberts,When Macedonia existed as a State,Greece was City States.In 338 BC the Macedonian kingdom won the war at Chaeronea.From this point on,the Greek identity stoped to exist up untill 1829.In 1913 Greece invaded Macedonia and with the help of the Big Powers Macedonia was divided into four parts without the people of Macedonias approval.If it is true that, you are in the negosiating team on the issue of the name,you Sir should withdrawal from these negosiations because you are biased.People like yourself,have distorted history,and still continue.The Myth of Greeces existance and that of being pure is absurd.The people of Greece have no connection to ancient Hellens let along to the ancient Macedonians.Greece comprises of a mixture of people,and the largest one is of Albanians.In 1885 the kingdom of Greece was debating on what language they will use,will it be Albanian or other.As of the result,they scraped the “Katharevusa”and came up with a language that people had to learn it in schools in order to be able to communicate amongs themselves.On the other hand,the Macedonian language has continuity from Alexanders time.The reaserch shows,the people of Unzi in Pakistan claim desendance from Alexander the Great.They claim,they are Macedonian,not Hellens.The western historians in order to get historical recognition,wrote the Mythical,fabricated history of Greece.The name Macedonia does not belong to Greece.Greece has brocken all agreements with the Republic of Macedonia.Greeces former PM Mitsotakis told the truth when he said “The name Macedonia is not the problem.the problem is the recognition of the Macedonian minority,and the muslims of Thrakia to Turks”.People the likes of yourself Sir allows the violations of basic human rights.Read Miss MacDougals report on Greeces violations of Human Rights againts the Macedonian minority.Greeces aim is to destroy the Macedonia identity because they use fabricated history that does not belong to them.Once more,Lozanoskas comment is true and to the point.

  15. Peter

    Daniel, you are forgetting one very importent fact.Greece came to the Macedonian territories in 1913.Greece was never in Macedonia prior to this date.As for the ancient discoveries in Vergina,Pella,they are Macedonian,not Greek.The Hellenic language was used like today the English.May I remind you what Alexander said to Phillotas? What Socrates wrote to Philip or what Demosthenes wrote for the fallen Hellens at Chaeronea?.Is it not true Metaxas ordered the changing of names and toponims 1936-40?.Please stop the shamefull falsification of history.I have the same right to declair myself who or what I am,as the whole world has.Do you know what PM Rallis said in 1903 durring the Macedonian upprising to the New York Times.Let me remind you.Rallis comment “We are co-operating with the Turks to destroy the Macedonian revolutionaries.We encourage people to co-operate with the Turkish authorities”.I ask you,why did he make those comments on September 1903?.It is enough with your fabrications,it is time to move on.

  16. Peter

    Daniel,I could not resist not answering your last paregraph.The Roman Empire acknowleged the Macedonian nation,why was not mentioned Greece?It is simple,Greece did not exist.Furthermore,The name Greece is an imposter name.Greeces name should be Alvanovlahia because Greece has no connection to the ancient Hellens.Furtheremore,the geographical Greece was under the Ottoman Empire for centuries,than why not call it Alvanoturkia?.It is only fitting to comment on your redicolouse comment about “Roman”.

  17. egejche

    The historical doublespeak from our Greek friends is their knee jerk response whenever they are confronted with the facts of this 2010 AD problem that they have created.

    Ms. Lozanoska skillfully exposes the aggression of Greece against its peaceful northern neighbor.

    Greeks have an enormous identity problem, and they must therefore attack because they cannot defend.

    Macedonia is eternal, and the Macedonians will never submit to Greek aggression!

  18. Anon

    @Daniel

    I would also note FYROM withdrew recognition of the Republic of China a few
    years ago. (also known as Taiwan)

    Quote:
    “emphatically that there is but one China in the world, that the Government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government representing the whole of China and that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the Chinese territory”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#P.R._China_and_R.O._China
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm

    If national name is an absolute right as some in FYROM claim…, then why did their government not apply their same rules to the people of Taiwan? Funny how that works isn’t it? Is China racial pure? Is Chinese culture the exact same as ancient counterparts? DNA tests of “modern” Chinese citizens indisputably show they they have seen genetic input from many peoples.

    And The same applies to Italians, English, Jews, Spanish, Koreans, Egyptians, . Are there any pure national races? I though this issue was settled during WW2 but apparently even today many people (including some that claim to support minorities) think along pseudo-scientific racial lines… rather than cultural/linguistic/locational self-identification perspective.

    Take for example modern Germans. DNA indisputable shows modern ethnic Germans have had genetic inputs from many non-German speaking regions and peoples. (Poland, Hungary, Lithuanians, Russia, Scandinavians, etc..). This mixing occurred in ancient times. It occurred in the the middle ages when Germans also called themselves Romans (when they ran the Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican used to say Romans/Byzantines in Greece were too Greek to be the real Romans). It occurred when mutli-ethnic Prussia was annexed to German in the 19th century. It’s occurring this very moment as post-eugenic Germans have been having children with people from over a hundred nations.

    A simple DNA test will confirm that the German people are not only not racially pure descendants of ancient counterparts but that modern ethnic Germans aren’t even a genetically homogeneous people. So do you put “German” in quotes Daniel? Do you ridicule them for seeing themselves related to Germans?

    If the Slavic people now living in what was once ancient Peonia now claim they are no longer Bulgarians and consider themselves related to ancient Macedonians, why don’t they want to speak the language those ancient Macedonians spread all the way to India… Greek. Why do they give Slavic names to their cities instead of Greeks one’s like ancient Macedonians? In fact, why don’t they compete in the Olympics as self-identifying Greeks as ancient Macedonians did? And why is 2.5 million Macedonians in Macedonia (aka Greece) seem to have no such problem?

    The bottom line is FYROM through their cultural/linguistic choices have defined themselves as non-Macedonians. It’s not the fault of Greeks the communists did this to them. It is not the fault of Greeks the FYROM current leadership contridict the identity claims of their own elected leadership from only a few years ago. Please stop harassing Greeks for the sake of your own negative stereotypes and petty ethnic insecurities.

  19. kris

    the text is right on!
    the couple of “quick” responses by henry and anon don’t surprise me,
    there are greeks and friends of greeks, always ready with that “special” quote to “show” how macedonians don’t really exist, but were simply “invented”, just to give people like them some hard time, I guess.
    well, it’s more than that! greeks hide a dirty little secret, a macedonian community within greece which is oppressed on their own historic land, since the occupation of 1913! Upon them a physical genocide was perpetrated (first napalm bombs were tested on gramos on macedonians) and when the world changed and ethnic cleansing was not seen as an “acceptable” form of eliminating a people for a NATO-EU member like Greece, then greeks continued with “just” a cultural genocide and assimilation, which still goes on! so how could greeks continue with their “master plan” when there came a Macedonia next door? surely they must squash it, starting by taking the name Macedonia away from Macedonians, people’s identity later, until there is no Macedonians anywhere, (ultimately if you can’t find the Macedonians-you can’t prove the crime of genocide done on them, simple as: no body- no crime)
    by the way anon and henry, if you think Tito invented macedonians, then I can’t wait to see how you gonna explain away the macedonians in Greece or in Bulgaria, or the ones who wrote themselves as Macedonians in the US immigration books in the 1800’s before there was a Tito? let alone that macedonian language is not “invented” but is considered one of the oldest in Europe possibly the very root language to all other Slavic languages…
    next thing, I am sure, you will quote how Alexander spoke greek, so macedonians must have been greek.
    well let me spare you, all you can prove is that Alexander was bilingual, not a greek, not by a long shot!
    and you certainly can’t “quote” Macedonians away!

  20. Daniel S.

    Macedonian revolutionaries considered themselves ethnic MACEDONIANS, fighting for an independent and free Macedonia! They considered themselves distinct from Serbs, greeks, Bulgars, Albanians AND they also considered themselves as direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians! I, and countless other Macedonians have “debated” with greek propagandists, and refuse to be drawn into debates about whether, according to you, we “exist or not”! In spite of Greece’s obsession with the destruction of the ETHNIC MACEDONIAN identity and state, and the theft of the Macedonian name ( logical, since they stole the land ), their efforts to lift the name from the Macedonian people will fail!! The Macedonian people have no inclination to be re-named by fascists of any stripe, nor does any Macedonian politician have such a mandate! The “name dispute” is a sham created by Greek politicians to divert attention from their corrupt activities and the “greek” populace is simply the last in the chain of “effect” that makes this absurd construct an actuality! Finally, if you, as Greeks have a problem with the UN Universal Charter on Human Rights, re-read it again, until you understand that the MACEDONIANS have a right to their historic name, and that you have NO RIGHT to deny them!

  21. postscriptnow

    Isn’t it interesting that in her list of friends, she includes the E.U which puts the same terms to the Macedonians that the Hellenic Republic put to the Macedonians.

    The terms ask for nothing less that the political extinction of the Macedonian Republic, as the representative body of the ethnic Macedonian people.

    Perhaps readers should understand that the acquisition of Macedonian territory, through the use of illegal force in 1913, is the issue being buried under the carpet. The Hellenic Republic has demanded that it is accorded all the rights allowed to the conqueror in international law, including the right to do whatever it wishes to its new subjects; but refuses to allow the rights formally allowed to the conquered, i.e., the Macedonians.

    The demands being made by the E.U are political, and they are directly assisting the Greek conquest of Macedonia, which started in 1913.

    On the question of the term FYROM at the U.N. Well, the UN has violated its own articles, and rules. This can be easily overturned.

    This over blown admiration and portrayal of the E.U as fair and just is the real problem.

  22. Macedonia

    Is this website some anti-Greek propaganda organization?
    It must be.
    For this is the second anti-Greece ‘article’ on this topic within a month.
    Instead of supplying facts to promote their ludicrous claims, (eg. Alexander wasn’t Greek but Slavic), they believe that writting articles in a ‘legal’ manner is enough to convince the reader of their delusions.
    Where are your FACTS?

  23. Ioakimidis

    No suprise here. . . more Fyromean nonsense.

    She says: cultural heritage is not the exclusive right of a single state, but of humankind as a whole.

    Great, maybe Skopje will claim George Washington as their new national hero. At this point, you can expect anything from FYROM.

  24. Mr X

    Where and when did Macedonians show themselves prior to Tito.
    This one is for all you brain washed silly Sub-African Athenians.
    Read black Athena fools
    And here is more: A MANIFESTO OF THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT OF MACEDONlA
    The Manifesto was proclaimed on 23rd March 1881. It was sent to all diplomatic representatives in Bitola, Solun and Carigrad (now Istambul). It is one of the most significant acts issued by the Provisional Government of Macedonia, an executive body of the National Assembly of Macedonia. The Manifesto was found in the documentation of the Central State Archives of the October Revolution and Socialist Construction in Moscow (Section Count Ignatiev, No 730, Description No 1, ed. hr. 79).
    23rd March 1881
    Macedonians,
    Our dear fatherland Macedonia was once one of the most glorious countries. Macedonian nation established the foundations of the art of war; with their victorious phalanx and Aristotle’s enlightenment they civilized the humanity and Asia. And now our fatherland, so glorious in the past, is on the verge of destruction, thanks to our mistakes and carelessness. Foreign and suspicious nations want conquer our homeland and destroy our nation, which, shining with such a light, will never be destroyed. Our mother Macedonia became now as a widow, lonely and deserted by her sons. She does not fly the banner of the victorious Macedonian army. Today she is just a geographic term. Much like if someone is trying to hide her victorious nature with the veil off oblivion. Conspirators have dug her grave and roam through our land, injecting poisons in her. These conspirator are the undertakers of our glorious and great fatherland, they want to dismember it and lay it as a pray in front of the victorious army of Austria-Hungary. If one joke is replaced with yet another, the revival of Macedonia will become impossible, and our nation will be eradicated. This moment is of utmost importance for Macedonia, it is a question of life or death.
    Real Macedonians, faithful offspring of your fatherland!
    Will you let your fatherland to be destroyed? Look at her, how she is suffocated in slavery, bleeding from the wounds that the surrounding nations have inflicted her with! Look at the heavy chains that the Sultan has put her in! In such a helpless state, all in tears, our dear Macedonia, our beloved fatherland is calling you: my faithful children, you descendents of Aristotle and Alexander the Great, you in whose veins flows Macedonian blood don’t leave me to die, help me! It would be a great shame for you, true Macedonians, if you remain silent witnesses of my burial. No, no, here are my awful bloody wounds, here are my heavy chains: beak them, heal my wounds, do whatever is in your power so the words “Allied and United Macedonia” can be written on the banner that I will raise. When you succeed victoriously, drive away the killer from this land, who fly the banner of discord and sow perilous ideas, dividing you, my children, into countless nations, and so united under the banner of Macedonia, as one nation, rise high that glorious banner and prepare to write single-mindedly on it:
    “Long live the Macedonian nation! Long live Macedonia!”
    This is the voice of our country; this is our freedom – our national inheritance. If you proclaim these words, you will be greeted by the free thinking nations and all graceful hears will hurry up to join you and fight with you, to help you gain the holy freedom, that has been taken away from us for so many centuries.
    Macedonians, remember you ancestry, and don’t give up on it!

  25. anon do you live in the country that was vetoed a NATO entry?
    do you fell proud of doing that? do you feel proud that for that action you killed of our foreign investments? and with the help your neighbor be a better country?
    did you feel really good when you were in elementary school and got bullied from kids older then you, taking your lunch money?
    that is what you guys are doing. bulling us around!
    feel proud. feel very proud and dont forget to spread the hate you have towards your MACEDONIAN neighbors… and teach your children to hate us…

  26. G

    “The 1995 Interim Accord between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece contains a provision which is directly related to good-neighbourly relations:’ the Parties (i.e., the Republic of Macedonia and Greece)”

    The 1995 Interim Accord was between FYRoM and Greece. There is no such state as “Republic of Macedonia” in the UN.

  27. Nikolaos

    Guys I just want ask the ‘macedonians’ a couple of simple questions:

    Why, if Alexander the great was not Greek, took hellenism everywhere in antiquity?
    Why if he spoke Macedonian and was so powerful didn’t chose his Macedonian language to Prevail?
    And last.
    Why people think that Greece renamed the toponyms in north Greece? What were the names of towns in ancient Greece? E.g wasn’t solun called thessaloniki in ancient Greece?

    You have no proof of history and we beat you in courts every day.

  28. Alfred di Genis

    This is not a report. This is a screed of value only to confirmed hate mongers. If the writer has, indeed, been formally educated, she should ask for a return of her tuition and the school should happily give it to her. Something in the relationship has gone terribly wrong.

  29. cons

    The whole idea of the ‘name’ talks is to find a mutually acceptable solution. Macedonia hasn’t made a single suggestion in 18 years! What is Greece supposed to do? Let Macedonia join NATO?! Either Macedonia is interested in resolving this issue or it isn’t. Greece acted appropriately in Bucharest. If Macedonia was committed to making some suggestions as to a name, then maybe Greece would have allowed her into NATO. But this state of affairs can’t go on forever! Greece drew the ‘red’ line in Bucharest.

  30. kris

    ah nikolaos, Alexander didn’t take hellenism everywhere,
    he took koine, the esperanto language of the time everywhere, so don’t mix up the terms.
    why Alexander didn’t subjugate the conquered lands to macedonian?
    he was trying to unite the world not to subdue it…
    as far as leaving macedonian language behind, well plenty of that, but are you looking?
    over 80 texts of ancient macedonian identical to modern macedonian are left in “dura europos”
    surely the rosetta stone in Egypt is a BIG example as well, where the greek text, specifically written for the greeks living in Egypt, which macedonians called Denai, doesn’t address the greeks as masters of Egypt, because the masters, Macedonians, of course, were not greek!
    just because Greece is hiding all Macedonian artefacts in Greece, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist!
    are you aware that over 54 tombs with inscriptions were discovered in Pella?
    why greeks choose to show only 5-6, only the ones with greek texts?

  31. Donna

    Loakimidis, “fyromean nonsense”? First of all, there is no “fyromean” but I
    believe you’re referring to Macedonian – regardless, if you are classifying
    the facts stated in the article as “nonsense” then you’re referring to
    UN’s, EU’s and NATO’s “nonsense” as the facts in the article were taken from
    their rules. Do you know who EU is? – they just recently bailed you out.

  32. Donna

    Nikolaos, you have a lot of reading to do – history cannot be answered in
    “a couple of simple questions”. I can quickly answer one for you, however –
    there is no and never was “ancient Greece”.

  33. Anon

    Daniel S. wrote: “Macedonian revolutionaries considered themselves ethnic MACEDONIANS, fighting for an independent and free Macedonia!”

    Pure rubbish promoted widely in the media by FYROM ultra-nationalists. They widely considered themselves ethnic Bulgarians (and their language Bulgarian) and was themselves fighting for exclusively a BULGARIAN Macedonia (much like Cypriots are Cypriots but also consider themselves ethnic Greeks) You are using “Macedonians” out of context. The Rumelia region was multi-ethnic under the Ottomans and NONE of those ethnicities were “ethnic Macedonians”. This is why demographic evidence from the period (from many sources) doesn’t show the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” in Macedonia region but does show plenty of Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Jews, Albanians… and of course Bulgarians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data

    Here is Delchev in his own handwriting calling himself an ethnic Bulgarian
    “We are Bulgarians”
    http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/images/stories/history/makedonia/2009_A/letter.jpg

    Here is the NY Times and London Times reporting Delchev’s death… as a Bulgarian.
    http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/images/stories/history/makedonia/2009_A/letter.jpg

    Let me quote you a letter Delchev wrote to Nikola Malashevski dated Jan. 5 1899
    “Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan… ”
    IMRO)

    Here are some of the BMARC statutes (predecessor of IMRO) from 1896 co-authored by Delchev and other future IMRO members.

    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

    Here is FYROM national hero Krste Misirkov explaining in his own words how he see’s a “Macedonian” “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Here is another FYROM national hero Hristo Tatarchev (founding member BMARC/IMRO) explaining in how he saw IMRO.
    “We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people”

    Here is a section of Ivan Hadzhinikolov’s memoirs where he states some of the basic principles of IMRO’s foundation.

    1. The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.

    2. Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.

    3. The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.

    4. The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and

    5. From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.

    Here is the US government stating the “Ethnic Macedonian” identity was communist demagogury. (i.e. are you accusing the US government of an attempted Genocide of “ethnic Macedonians”)
    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    Loring Danforth is a long time supporter of FYROM who has submitted letters of support to self-proclaimed FYROM “human rights” websites. For years he’s being pro-FYROM (so he can hardly be accused of a pro-Greek on issues)

    The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)

    “Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD”
    http://www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm

    Notice how even he calls FYROM nationalists that try to build an ancient narrative for themselves “Nationalist extremists”.

  34. Anon

    @giotto

    It is YOUR country that is built on hatred of Greeks. You hate us because we are forced to call our your historical absurdities.(since we are the one’s most effected by it-no one else cares) You hate us so much you’ve even lost your ethnic Bulgarian heritage to your hate.

  35. Anon

    @cons

    Notice how FYROM nationalists avoid any discussion the quotes I mention by their own national heroes (who are on record calling themselves ethnic Bulgarians-which is why Bulgarians also don’t recognize an “ethnic Macedonian” identity)

    More quotes by historians…

    “In 1878 at the time of San Stefano, the population of Macedonia was about one million. Greeks inhabited most of the coastal districts, and there were many settlement of Vlachs, Serbs and Turks: but many of the Macedonian peasants of the interior classed themselves as Bulgars.” – Balkan Background By Newman, Bernard, page 53

    “The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian”
    The New Macedonian Question (St. Antony’s) by James Pettifer, page 12

    “Where an overarching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one until at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a separated Macedonian identity would only emerge later” – Outcast Europe BY Tom Gallagher, page 47

    “It is very interesting to compare together the different inhabitants of European Turkey, such as the Servians, the Bulgarians, the Wallachians, the Greeks, and the Albanians. The Servians and Bulgarians may be said to be nearly the same people, and appear to be more numerous than the Greeks; – The Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal: exhibiting a view of the Progressive discoveries..” Published 1838 by A. and C. Black (Original from the New York Public Library p.240 (please notice no mention of “ethnic Macedonians”)

    “And so the “Bulgarophone” villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as “Macedonian“. (Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp 205)

    “Modern Turkish histories present the idea that the macedonian question was the essential ingredient in understanding the volatile mix of problems that ultimately led to Balkan wars. Because the population of Macedonia was primarily Bulgarian, it was influenced heavily by the events of 1878. It is very likely that the establishment of the greater Bulgaria envisioned by the treaty of San Stefano, and which included much of Macedonia whetted the nationalistic appetites a substantial portion of the Bulgarian population of Macedonia.” – Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912 By Edward J. Erickson, page 39

    “It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper, the old principality, that in October, 1908, at Tirnova, was proclaimed independent of Turkey” (Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, “Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American’s Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists”, 1908, p. 4-5)

    “In the 1990s,Macedonians speak a language codified in 1946,spoken by less than two million people, and with a very slender literature. They are members of an Orthodox Church whose authority was established by a socialist political regime in 1968.They are heirs to a 1903 revolution that until the 1940s was described by almost all sources as being Bulgarian. They are descendants from people who were called, and at times called themselves, Serbs or Bulgarians.”
    “The history of the Balkan Peninsula?” 1971 by Ferdinand Schevill page 432

    “Ever since 1878 there had been a sizeable Macedonian presence in Bulgaria…Most if not all Macedonians in Bulgaria at this period regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and the refugees were a potential political lobby of considerable size.”
    “Ideologies and national identities: the case of twentieth-century” by John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower 2004 page 125

  36. Anon

    @kris says:

    “ah nikolaos, Alexander didn’t take hellenism everywhere,
    he took koine, the esperanto language of the time everywhere, so don’t mix up the terms.”

    Uhmmmm. It was not the “esparanto language” it was a language spoken ONLY in the region of Greece until Alexander spread it. FYROM nationalists always claim a few scattered words among a gigantic number words that otherwise look like Greek amount to a “Macedonian” language rather than just a Greek dialect spoken by Macedonians. Why pray tell then… wouldn’t they spread their own “langauge” dear? Please point me to any conquering nation in history… that spread the language of their neighbour as the primary language of their empire rather than their own.

    Furthermore, didn’t only spread the language, religion, culture, ideas, architecture that clearly had its roots in Hellenism. (rather than say Peru)

    You claim “just because Greece is hiding all Macedonian artefacts in Greece, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist!”

    And just because you claim Greeks are “hiding” artifacts… doesn’t mean you aren’t an anti-Greek bigot who hides in shame from your Bulgarian heritage.

    It must be noted that the construction of a distinct Macedonian national identity is a relatively recent phenomenon even by Balkan standards. Its origins can be traced to the work of a small group of late nineteenth- and early twentieth -century intellectuals like Krste Misirkov, who in 1903 called for the “recognition of the Slavs in Macedonia as a separate nationality – Macedonians” (Misirkov 1974:73). At this time, however, the majority of the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia were illiterate peasants with no clearly developed sense of national identity see Friedman (1975). (Loring Danforth)
    http://www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm

  37. Kassandros

    Why there is not even one! former Bulgarian elaborates all the referecences brought from Annon?
    There are many many references and most of them are from people with the same ancestry as you.. and they ALL say they same thing; You’re not Macedonians and you have nothing to do with Macedonians. Fullstop.
    NONE answered to this references! NONE! Ladies and gentlemen,this is called, PROPAGANDA! Tito and commounism is dead. Get over it. In real western democratic world you have to have answers!

    To give you an example, you have to answer.. “Thessaloniki, a Macedonian name of a Macedonian princess, sister of Alexander the Great.. or Solun, a Slavic name?”
    Come on, I want to see how ‘Macedonians’ you’re..

    Also, regarding the stupidity with the settlers, yes, indeed many Greeks came in 1922 with the population exchange from Asia Minor etc etc. These people are not called Macedonians. They called Pontians, Smyrnioi, Konstantinoupolites, Thracians etc etc etc. Why you confuse things? Macedonians are the ones who were in Macedonia far before 1922 like Emmanouil Pappas who started the revoolution against Ottomans.
    The General of Macedonians in 1821!
    Macedonians were the fans of Iraklis FC Thessaloniki who was established in 1908!
    Macedonians are the readers of the newspaper “Macedonia” since 1900! Its me..
    Why you keep referring to refuggees and not to the real Macedonians? for the reasons of Propaganda?
    Tito didnt prepared you for real Macedonians..?

    Guys,really now, you have to give answers. Not just bla bla bla “we’re Macedonians” bla bla bla. Do you believe that by repeating all that stuff, again and again, without any answers to the references, the rest of the world will believe you?

    Thessaloniki or Solun bre “Macedonians”..
    Macedonians(Dorians) or Slavs… bre “Macedonians”.?
    At least just that answer!
    The Macedonian princess or the Slavic word.. bre “Macedonians”?

  38. Kassandros

    .. and one more thing;

    When we say that today English is a famous language spoken by most of the people… we dont mean that in our graves English will be written too.
    In graves people use their mother tongue, not the famous language!

    Can you remind me please what is the ONLY language found in the graves of ancient Macedonians?

    pfff..you make real Macedonanians feel discussed just by thinking that people like you will share the same word for our origins with us..with or without an adjective. Its a humiliation of the “Macedonian” name.

  39. Kassandros

    ps. Dont forget; Thessaloniki, a Macedonian Princess or Solun, a Slavic irrelevant name… bre… “Macedonians”

  40. Anon

    @Donna writes: ” Nikolaos, you have a lot of reading to do – history cannot be answered in “a couple of simple questions”. I can quickly answer one for you, however there is no and never was “ancient Greece”

    These sorts of claims show just how how of touch with reality some FYROM nationalists have become. Dear Donna. Greece in ancient times existed. While it was not a united country, it was a region constantly referenced in ancient texts. This is no different than virtually nation on earth that was once split up into smaller juristictions that joined into bigger nations because they were united by common culture, language, and sense of historical identity.

    Here is an excerpt of the speech of Alexander I of Macedonia when upon being admitted to the Olympic games as a SELF-IDENTIFYING GREEK (Herodotus, Histories, 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

    “Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery.”

    You expect your own identity to be respected carte blanche… so why don’t you respect ancient Macedonians who self-identified as ethnic Greeks then? Why do FYROM nationalists constantly harass Macedonians in Greece that equally considered themselves both Macedonians and Greeks?

    Can anyone say the word hypocrisy?

  41. kris

    anon, koine was the preferred language of trade all over the Mediterranean long before Alexander and you know it!
    but if you really think language alone makes all the difference about who was greek, then why not claim persians as greeks?
    after all their kings also spoke greek, their documents were in greek, their money was in greek ….why not say that greece should be all they way to Iraq?
    about quotes, it’s not that we don’t want to discuss them, it’s that you greeks are extremely selective about which ones you use! here are some ancient historians views for you to think about:

    The ancient Greek historians and geographers from the classical and the post-classical period, Ephoros, Pseudo-Skylax, Dionysius son of Kalliphon, and Dionysius Periegetes, all put the northern borders of Greece at the line from the Ambracian Gulf in the west to the Peneios River to the east, thus excluding Macedonia from Greece.

  42. Donna

    Anon, you have taken a lot of space here with quatations from “he said/she said” statements made by people who, like you, may not have known the facts
    or intentionally omiting the facts out of fear for either their personal
    safety or their political standing. Every country from time to time deals
    with those kind of people. You can say anyhing you want but you cannot
    change the world’s history and history has it that there was one and only
    Macedonia but unfortunately in 1913 was partitioned and about half of it
    was gifted over to Greece and that portion was called Norther Greece until
    Republic of Macedonia pulled away from Yugoslavia. Honestly, I wold be
    embarassed to be making the false statements that you are making – the
    Balkan countries know the real truth, including Bulgaria that sides with
    Greece.

  43. Anon

    @Peter

    Your claims are delusionary. I will expose you for the extreme nationalist you are.

    1. “Since 1913,the partition of Macedonia,Greece”

    “macedonia” was not partitioned. What was partitioned was officially partitioned was Ottoman Rumelia (which was Turkish for “land of the Romans”… in reference to the prior Greek-speaking Byzantine state they had conquered a few centuries earlier)

    2. “systematicly violated our Human Rights by not allowing us to speak our own language”

    You violated your own human rights under sixty years of communist oppression by forbidding people to express their Bulgarian heritage. Your “ethnic Macedonian” identity (rather than “ethnic Bulgarian” is the result of those decades of oppression.

    3. “to prey in churches in our own only understood language.Greece changed our names,toponyms etc.”

    The land FYROM now controls used to be controlled by the Ottomans. FYROM nationalist extremists always “forget” to mention they too changed the toponyms of the places to Slavic names from Turkish. Also of note, Greeks changed the most of the toponyms to original Greek names (e.g. Thessaloniki) whereas FYROM change their names to Slavic names. If they claim to be proud of their “ancient” roots.. why do they refer to places in Greece by Slavic names like “Lerin” and “Solun”… rather than by the names of their own self-proclaimed ancestors? Funny that.

    4. “Furtheremore Mr.Roberts,When Macedonia existed as a State,Greece was City States.In 338 BC the Macedonian kingdom won the war at Chaeronea.From this point on,the Greek identity stoped to exist up untill 1829.”

    Lies. Lies. And more lies. Greeks (including Macedonians) were conquered by Romans and later became Roman citizens but the Olympic games didn’t even end until Theodosius II in AD 435. The term “Hellene” started to fall out of fashion when Roman emperors forced the conversion of the entire Roman empire to Christianity from paganism circa 400-600 (see Justinian and Theodosius codes)

    While the term “hellene” became associated with paganism variations of the term Greek remained in use, While it is also true that the Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic (as was the Holy Roman Empire run by German-but no one questions the identity of Germans)… there are many records of many prominent Roman Greek-speakers in Greece (rather than say other parts of the larger empire) referencing their Greek historical heritage. (today called “Byzantines”)

    e.g.
    Byzantine Emperor Doukas Vatatzes speaks of his predecessors as “τους από γενών ελληνικών άρξαντας” having started from Hellenic-Greek roots.

    e.g
    Anna Comnena in the Alexiad (considered one of the definitive books on Byzantine history) in Book 13, X states “the man [Bohemond] was such as, to put it briefly, had never before been seen in the land of the ROMANS, be he either of the barbarians or of the HELLENES”.

    e.g. Emperor of Nicaea, John III Ducas Vatatzes, wrote in a letter to Pope Gregory IX about the wisdom that “rains upon the Hellenic nation” (1200s)

    e.g.
    e.g Early advocate for Greek independence (a centure before your claim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardos_Philaras

    e.g.
    The last Byzantine Emperor (Constantine Palaeologos) in 1453 (just before the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans) refers to it as “the guardian of all Greeks”(1400s)
    rumkatkilise.org/constantineXI.htm

    e.g.
    Even westerners considered Byzatines as Greeks (Byzantine is a modern invention by a 16th century German to describe the Romans of Greece-presumably since Germans at the time still claimed to be the real Romans). Upon moving Roman seat of power from Constantinople to Charlemagne (over a thousand years ago) the Vatican decreed “Decretalium, Romanourm imperium in persona magnifici Caroli a Grecis transtuli in Germanos”… which translates into
    “transferred Roman imperial authority from the Greeks to the Germans, in the name of His Greatness, Charles” (Now apparently the revisionist historians claim the exact opposite, that we were too Roman to be real Greek!)

    e.g.
    Greek scholars of Renaissance – many of whom besides speaking Greek, taught Greek philosophy and considered their ancestors Greeks (rather than say Bulgarians like FYROM’s ancestors from a hundred years ago)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

    e.g.
    Byzantine neo-Platonic philosopher Georgius Gemistus Plethon wrote over 500 years ago “we’re Greeks by genus, as our language and education testifies”.

    e.g. (people that considered their ancestors ancient Greeks)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:15th-century_Greek_people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:16th-century_Greek_people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:17th-century_Greek_people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:18th-century_Greek_people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:19th-century_Greek_people

    Whoops. Did I break the state myths you FYROM nationalists promote far and wide in the media?

    5. “In 1913 Greece invaded Macedonia and with the help of the Big Powers Macedonia was divided into four parts without the people of Macedonias approval.”

    There were no “Macedonian” people. There were Bulgarins, Greeks, Serbs, Jews, Albanians, and Turks. (any of which who could have referenced themselves as “Macedonians”… or “Peonians” for that matter)

    6. “If it is true that, you are in the negosiating team on the issue of the name,you Sir should withdrawal from these negosiations because you are biased.People like yourself,have distorted history”

    Lol. You can’t even face your ethnic Bulgarin heritage and your lecturing Greeks?

    6. “and still continue.The Myth of Greeces existance and that of being pure is absurd.”

    What is “absurd” is the hatefilled negative stereotype promoted by FYROM nationalists (and any of their lowlife supporters with Greek prejudices) that say Greek believe they are “pure”. Of course we are not “pure’-no nation on earth is racially or culturally pure from a hundred years ago much less thousands (which a DNA test will easily confirm). I don’t see FYROM nationalists claiming Germans aren’t “real Germans”, or refer to the people as solely “english-speakers”,or frame Jews that also lived under the Ottomans as “ethnic Turks of the Jewish religion”.

    7. “The people of Greece have no connection to ancient Hellens let along to the ancient Macedonians.”

    This the stupidest thing you’ve said yet. Modern DNA evidence seems to show a biological connection for a large section of the Greek population. Then of course we live in Greece (rather than say ancient Peoenia like the former Bugarians of FYROM). Then of course our language is actually Greek (rather than say a Bulgarian dialect renamed into “Macedonian language” by communists) Then of course modern western culture has borrowed heavily from Greek culture. I’d say you have it exactly backwards. Off all the people that claim an ancient past today, few (if any) resemble ancient ancestors more than Greeks.

    8.”the kingdom of Greece was debating on what language they will use,will it be Albanian or other.As of the result,they scraped the “Katharevusa”and came up with a language that people had to learn it in schools in order to be able to communicate amongs themselves.”

    More ignorance. Greece’s diaglossa debate was between whether to choose Demotic versus Katherevousa. Katherevousa was a version of Greeks that was cleared of foreign influences to make it closer to ancient Greek. Demotic was the natural time-worn Greek (that had slowly evolved from earlier Greek dialects… tracing its way back to the Koine Greek spoken/spread by ancient Macedonians)

    9. “On the other hand,the Macedonian language has continuity from Alexanders time.”

    Gibberish. You alphabet is different to Koine Greek spoken/spread by ancient Macedonians. By comparison the modern Greek alphabet uses the EXACT same alphabet.And alhtough there have been some phoentic and gramattical changes many words on ancient Macedonians are easily understood even today by Macedonians in Greece. (rather than you gents that ALWAYS need Greek translators to help you)

    Your language didn’t even exist until nearly a thousand years later. Your language is not an iota closer to Koine Greek than Russian or Polish or Bulgarian. Its present form was only codified by the communists (who modified it from a Bulgarian dialect into an “Macedonian” language by adding some Serbian and Croatian to it)

    10. “The name Macedonia does not belong to Greece.Greece.

    Sure does. We have three regions names Macedonia. We are also part of ancient Macedonia (rather than ancient Peonia like you gents)

    11. “they use fabricated history that does not belong to them”

    So how is the giant Alexander statue the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians living in the lands of ancient Peonians coming along these days? And what did your former elected leaders mean by these words champ?

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, A1 TV June 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

  44. Anon

    @Donna

    “facts’ involve more than spitting out empty narratives. Facts can include quotes by your own national hero’s referencing their ETHNIC BULGARIAN roots. Your own national hero Krste Misirkov made it quite clear in his own words what you call “Macedonians” today were Bulgarians in the 19th century.

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Unfortunately, your government and extreme nationalists prefer to hide that information. Instead you prefer to live in hatred of Greeks because we are forced to expose your state myths. (since your nationalists constantly reference Macedonia as “Occupied”, “Paritioned’ and “divided” … along with endless references of “united Macedonia”… you’ve left us no choice)

    When the neighboring state elects a party named VMRO in honor of IMRO… when many in IMRO collaborated with the Nazis and then later Communists in killing many Greeks in the mid 20th century (for “ethnic Macedonian” absurdities)… what did you honestly expect us to do?

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    e.g. various UN resolutions condemning our communist neighbours for the role they played in killing Greeks during its civil war
    (UN General Assembly Resolution 193, 1948)
    http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/3/ares3.htm
    (UN General Assembly Resolution 288, 1949)
    http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/4/ares4.htm
    (UN General Assembly Resolution 382 (V Section C), 1950)
    http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/5/ares5.htm
    (UN General Assembly Resolution 618, 1952)

    e.g. Greek orphans (many of them Macedonians whose parents were slaughter using weapons from then communist Yugoslavians looking to create a “United Macedonia”)
    http://www.life.com/image/50774476
    http://www.life.com/image/50774469
    http://www.life.com/image/50774470

    etc… etc…

  45. Anon

    kris says:

    @ anon, koine was the preferred language of trade all over the Mediterranean long before Alexander and you know it!

    Nonsense. People in Spain were not speaking Koine Greek. People in Algeria were not speaking Koine Greek. Prior the Macedonians about the only place Greek was spoken was in the regions around Greece (aegean, Ionia sea, a little in Magna Gracia, Asia Minor (that used to be Greek), and perhaps a little at various ports.

    In addition, while Koine has its roots in earlier attic dialect, it was Macedonians themselves that made Koine the defacto standard version of Greek across their empire . (rather than Athenian attic or the so-called “Macedonian Language” FYROM nationalists claim existed)

    “but if you really think language alone makes all the difference about who was greek, then why not claim persians as greeks?”

    The conquered did not chose Greek culture and language. It was thrust upon them by force… of ancient Macedonians… who CHOSE Greek as their language, culture, and identity.

    Why is you forget to mention Macedonian participation at the ancient Olympic games as self-identifying Greeks (for centuries I might add). Does your current leader compete at the Olympics as an ethnic Greek… as ancient Macedonians did?

  46. kris

    anon, the bottom line is that history created Macedonians (us) and Greeks (you)
    there is no turning back or changing that fact.
    if greeks think of themselves as macedonians NOW, well they can’t explain the big historic GAP
    you see you don’t have something called CONTINUITY as macedonians.
    we on the other hand have always called ourselves Macedonians.

    Nineteenth century Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as people of the same ethnicity (Politis 1993:36; Dimaras 1958; Karagatsis, 1952). Greeks in the late eighteen hundreds and earl nineteenth century viewed the Macedonians as conquerors of Greece. Only after the Megale Idea took up roots in the Greek scholarship, did Greeks embark on providing and securing ‘evidence’ for their new political vision; which was born and bred from the limbs of the rapidly decaying Ottoman Empire.

    CONCLUSION

    It should be no surprise that Alexander introduced the standard koine Greek language for his multi-ethnic empire. For that Greek language was already the only international language on which the people in antiquity communicated prior to the Macedonian conquest (just like English is international language today). The Macedonians were smart enough to keep this international Greek language for the Persians, Egyptians, Jews, and all the nations of his empire to communicate. Forcing all those people to learn now a new foreign Macedonian language (or any other one) would have only provoked an additional hatred and multi-ethnic resistance for the Macedonian occupation of Asia, Egypt, and Greece, which the Macedonians did not wanted to face. Unlike the Roman Empire, there was no single powerful centralized Macedonian Empire, but three main Macedonian kingdoms (Macedonia, Asia, Egypt) which were in conflict occasionally among each other, and the Macedonians needed such language standardization to help them maintain their power. That of course, does not mean that although the Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, Jews, now communicated in Greek, that they all turned into Greeks, just like the African nations did not turn into French and English because of their usage of those two languages to communicate among themselves.

    What is for certain is that Alexander spoke Macedonian with his own Macedonian troops and used Greek in addressing the Asians and Greeks. After all, the Macedonians were his kinsmen (precisely the way he calls them), not the Greeks. All these sources, both ancient and modern, specifically refer to Macedonian as a language and not as a dialect of Greek, and Alexander himself specifically calls the Macedonian – “our native language”. During the trial of Philotas, Alexander himself clearly distinguishes his native Macedonian language from the Greek language which as a second language at the Macedonian court alongside with Macedonian, was used in diplomacy, a fact we found in the Philotas trial (Q. Curtius Rufus).

  47. john

    @kris

    400 accredited historians from world famouse universities such as Oxford , Cambridge and Stanford are protesting against Fyroms historical propaganda. They write:

    “We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

    On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.

    We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)

    ” We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.”

    http://www.macedonia-evidene.org

  48. john

    @Kris

    Today Fyroms is ruled by an extremist nationalistic governemt. But there are also educated people that objects the falsification of history that is performed in Fyrom:

    Zarko Trajanovski, columnist for the daily Dnevnik, argues that the government is conducting self-defeating, Bucephalic politics of brainwashing. Until yesterday we slept as Macedonian Slavs, today we wake up as ancient Macedonians…who knows how we will wake up tomorrow…

    President Branko Crvenkovski, arch-enemy of VMRO leader and prime minister Nikola Gruevski, has also condemned the governments identity politics.
    By using cheap populism, media manipulation, and abusing the patriotic feelings of the citizens, the current government has been conducting a systematic action, not for preservation or affirmation, but for re-defining our national code and identity, said President Crvenkovski in a recent debate.

    We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.
    Slobodan Ugrinovski (Слободан Угриновски), politician of the FYROM and the current leader of the left-wing political party Union of Tito’s Left Forces, “Tito e Isus Hristos za Makedonija” (“Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia”), A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009.

    “The idea that Alexander the Great was something that belonged to our history was in the minds of some extremist political groups only! ”

    Denko Maleski, first Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM (1991 to 1993) and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to Greek TV channel Mega, November 2006

    “Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev – must I list and count all of them – were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.”

    former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubčo Georgievski, 2007, in his book “С лице към истината” (“Facing the truth”).

    “We belong to the same Slav people.”

    Slobodan Casule, (born 1945), Foreign Minister of FYROM, to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria Solomon Pasi, in an interview to “Utrinski Vesnik” of Skopje on December 29,2001.

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009)

  49. john

    @Kris

    Lets see what real lingustics states about your language

    “Macedonian is similar to Bulgarian and is sometimes been regarded as a variety of that language.”

    “Encyclopedia of Bilingualism and Bilingual Education”, Colin Baker, Sylvia Prys Jones, p. 415

    “From a strictly linguistic point of view Macedonian can be called a Bulgarian dialect, as structurally it is most similar to Bulgarian. ”

    “Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics”, Keith Brown, 1994

    The question should be raised why do former self determined Bulgarians try to link themself to the ancient macedonian territory/history which is to almost 100% within the boarders of Greece. What problems will that cause in the future when Fyroms ultra nationalistic government theaches its children that 33% of Greece territory belongs to them? Did the author miss that in her analysis? Did she not learn anything from the ethnic conflicts within Yugoslavia? Should a nation be allowed to enter EU whan its whole identity is based on falsification of history? Every historical figure from Tsar Samuil , Kuber Saint Naum , Alexander , Cyril etc have all been historical falsified by Fyrom and rebranded with an artificial ethnik Macedonian tag. Maybe the author can answer the reason why 400 accredited historians writes:

    ” the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.”

  50. Anon

    @kris

    You write: “the bottom line is that history created Macedonians (us) and Greeks (you) there is no turning back or changing that fact.”

    Or so you claim. Keep in mind your claim is from someone that also attempts claim to be related to ancient Macedonians, claims a former Bulgarian dialect is now “Macedonian”, and hides from very unambiguous evidence of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian past.

    You write: “we on the other hand have always called ourselves Macedonians”

    Childish nationalist myths.

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    –On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans.  In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said:  “We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz.”  In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language.” 

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    Your problem is you listen to absurd self-proclaimed “historians” like Risto. He isn’t even an accredited historian. He is a former office assistant. I’m not even sure if he went to college but unfortunately he sells books by telling FYROM nationalists like you what they want to hear-rather than the truth.

    And the truth is you mostly used call yourselves ethnic Bulgarians less than a century ago. There were some ethnic Serbs mixed in the later Tito era as Yugoslav communists encouraged the creation of the “ethnic Macedonian” identity to serve the double interest of making claims on Greek Macedonia and distancing ethnic Bulgarians in Yugoslavia from the Bulgarians cousins)

    During the Byzantine and later Ottoman era your Bulgarian ancestors also occasionally mixed with Greeks and other people’s too-but your identity, culture, location, education practices, and language is clearly in Bulgarian cultural sphere.

    You write: “It should be no surprise that Alexander introduced the standard koine Greek language for his multi-ethnic empire.”

    Many large empires had multiple languages but I challenge you to produce me one empire in history that used a language other than its own as a primary language of its conquered states. Did Romans use Greek or Latin? Did the Huns use Chinese? Did the British spread French? Did the French spread English?

    You write: “For that Greek language was already the only international language on which the people in antiquity communicated prior to the Macedonian conquest”

    You are just making up facts out of thin air to suit your pleasant narrative as an “ancient Macedonian”. The evidence points to the FACT it was ancient Macedonians themselves that made Greek an international language. (why it is named the Hellenistic period after the Macedonian expansion and not before)

  51. Anon

    The FYROM nationalists on this thread referencing Macedonia as “occupied” and now claiming themselves related to ancient Macedonians…. are living evidence that Greeks were right all along about the FYROM government’s irredentist behavior and attempts to steal Greece’s heritage.

    Again… these are the words of FYROM own elected public officals. How is it the FYROM government elected these officials that didn’t even know their “ancient identity” only a few years ago… yet today claim to be direct descents (in an unbroken chain according to Kris)

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    ‘The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.’
    (FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski – 1991 to 1993)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related

    “We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”
    (Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician – “Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia” – A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88

    ‘Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev – must I list and count all of them – were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.’
    (former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book ‘Facing the truth’)

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    It doesn’t affect anyone else calling FYROM “Macedonians”. For now, FYROM’s state propaganda only hurts Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians so it’s easy to pretend to be taking the high moral ground when it isn’t someone else’s nation under threat. However, its that sort of thinking of making sacrificial goats of other people’s nations which creates fertile ground for evil to flourish unabated.

    (recent FYROM state run TV broadcast)
    “Divine blessing for you, my Macedonians. I have waited for thousands of years to be called by you. From always with you, from eternity I am coming, I am already among you because here neither time nor space exists. Here, at my place, the time is still. But at your place, the time is now, for me to explain. Your mother earth I have inhabited with three races: the White-Macedonoids, the Yellow-Mongoloids and the Black-Negroids. The rest-all are mulattoes. From you, Macedonians, the descendants of Macedon, I have impregnated the White race and everything began from you, to the Sea of Japan. All White people are your brothers because they carry Macedonian gene. And all the migrations started from your place towards the north. Kokino, Porodin, Radobor, Angelci, Barutnica, Govrlevo, wherever you dig you shall find the truth who you are, why you are and from where are you. Evil diabolic souls obscured the truth for thousands of years and lied to the world.”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ITEdiSBl3Y&annotation_id=annotation_772496&feature=iv

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana

  52. Anon

    @kris

    Suppose the dirty corrupt Greek paid these hundreds of university professors (including many from some of the most prestigious universities in the world) to put their careers on the line supporting Greece? (by going up against a mob of ignorant haters that unfairly blame Greeks for decades of oppression of your ethnic Bulgarian heritage by communists)

    Dear President Obama,

    We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

    On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.

    We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)

    The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

    While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.

    Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

    We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

    Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.

    Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

    Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

    Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

    Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

    The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

    The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

    The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

    The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

    The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

    However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.

    We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

  53. kris

    ethnic bulgarian past???
    that doesn’t explain the Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia- Bulgaria, who created them? Tito? the Aliens?
    I am sure you will find some explanation in your head…
    but you should consider that Bulgarians adopted the Macedonian language trough the evangelization with St. Kliment of Ohrid, by a decree of their own king, who forbade the use of their tartar language.
    so you see Bulgarians adopted Macedonian, not the other way around…
    Macedonian and Bulgarian today are separate and distinct languages, similar but different just as Macedonian is similar but different with other Slavic languages …
    but since greeks are always hung up on the language thing,
    consider this: Serbs, Croatians, Montenegrins, Bosnians all speak ONE IDENTICAL LANGUAGE,
    called Serbo-Croatian, but yet you wouldn’t call them one nation…. just goes to show your hypocrisy, half truths and misinformation you stand ready to use to justify your genocidal crimes against Macedonians.
    but the “joke” is on you, cause only greeks seem to believe their own mental constructions.

  54. Jana Lozanoska

    Dear all,

    Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I must note that none of them refers to article itself and its content, therefore for this subject I don’t find them relevant. The article wasn’t intended for propagandist purposes (as some of the commentators say) and wasn’t intended to discuss history but to examine one part of the substance of the ‘problem’ by recalling the facts (for which there is a application at the International Court of Justice) and law. I understand that some of you feel frustrated because of the lack of legal arguments on Greece’s side and therefore resort to some points to unreliable and unfunded arguments.

    Further, I’d like to reply to one commentator who said that ‘the Interim Accord from 1995 refers to Greece and FYROM’. To this I must add clarification and point out that isn’t correct because the Interim Accord refers to the First Party (which applies to Greece) and the Second Party which applies to (Republic of Macedonia), on purpose the naming was avoided – because of our provisional name in UN which is (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and not as our neighbors from Greece insist on FYROM). In addition, one commentator discussed the fact that I mentioned that the cultural heritage is not exclusive right to one state but the humankind as whole. Obviously the said commentator didn’t understand the article and doesn’t follow the discourse and the problem in general. Since the Greek government and EU representatives insist and relate the renaming of the Airport and insertion of sculptures to good neighborly relations I had intention to portray that this strategy and argumentation is unsubstantiated for the simple reason that such criteria doesn’t exist in the formal content of the principle of good neighborly relations as perceived by UN. And according to UN Charter EU and NATO are only regional organizations which must act and observe the principles of the Charter.

    At the end I must also note that most of you don’t understand the issue, but however this kinds of forums are good place partly to clarify some things. Namely, the Greek line of argumentation that the name Republic of Macedonia triggers territorial pretensions is completely ill-founded. Why? In accordance with Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which governs this issue, the threat and use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of any state is prohibited. In this respect, use of force implies use of armed force. This force can be direct (armed force by a state) or indirect (when other states equip or assist irregulars). Resolution 3314 of the UN General Assembly in 1970 contains a description of activities that can be considered acts of aggression, i.e., armed attacks, and these activities do not only refer to use of force, since, according to practice, this latter term is more extensive and, amongst other things, includes border incidents. The activities in Resolution 3314 are taxonomically enumerated and they include: invasion or attack of a state by another state’s armed forces; bombardments; armed blockade of ports; the employment of mercenaries and armed irregulars by a state in order to carry out an armed attack of another state. This shows that the name of a country cannot represent the basis for territorial pretensions towards another state. If this were the case then, in a European context, Belgium, which has a province called Luxembourg, could accuse Luxembourg of having territorial pretensions towards it. The same goes for Great Britain (Grande Bretagne in French) and France, where there is a region called Brittany (Bretagne in French). In an African context, the example is even more significant since here we are dealing with the names of two states, rather than names of provinces and regions – the names of the Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo are almost the same. The latter state used to be called Zaire in the past and in recent times it changed its name to ‘the Democratic Republic of the Congo’. Nevertheless, the Republic of the Congo does not claim that the Democratic Republic of the Congo has territorial pretensions towards it and neither party has asked for negotiations within the auspices of the UN, like in the case of the Republic of Macedonia.
    Furthermore, question 1 (c) of the Badinter Commission, related to the uti possidetis principle (stability and non-changeability of borders that have already been established), was: “does Macedonia (the Commission only used the name Macedonia in the opinion) pledge that it will not change its borders by use of force?”, to which the then Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Macedonia answered: “Yes, the Republic of Macedonia will respect the inviolability of territorial borders that can only be changed in a peaceful way and through consent”. Therefore, Greece’s claims that the name “Macedonia” entails territorial pretensions are unfounded for two reasons, even more so at a time when the uti possidetis.
    principle, i.e., the principle of non-changeability of borders is deeply rooted in international law. Secondly, the decision to call ourselves the Republic of Macedonia cannot in any case fall under the category of territorial pretensions, i.e., use of force or threat, and thus it does not represent interference in Greece’s internal affairs. Indeed, this is exactly what Badinter’s Commission concluded in its Opinion No 6.

    The Greece’s insistence and pressure to Republic of Macedonia to change its name violates the principles of sovereign equality and non-interference in the internal affairs of states, which has been concluded by many authors. With the tabled proposals by the mediator Nimitz on which Greece insists on, actually wants to call upon history in order to separate (in a physical sense) the territory of ancient Macedonia, that has existed in the past, from the state Republic of Macedonia, which exists in the present, is based on the existing democratic principles and values, and has clearly defined borders and political system. These demands would be at least slightly more legitimate and more logical if the Republic of Macedonia called itself Ancient Macedonia, but in this case, Greece’s arguments fall down completely and show the complete groundlessness of Greece’s claims.

    In any case thank you for the interest. This article only intended to discuss one aspect of the issue (which is the legal one) and in no case is intended to foster animosity or nationalistic propaganda as some of you point out. Therefore, I kindly ask you to refrain from creating animosity and nationalism because such behavior in no case would add to clarification and solving of the issue.

    If interested to read more on the issue please visit: http://www.euba.edu.mk/CIA/Exposing%20and%20deconstructing%20the%20Greek%20arguments.pdf

    Best regards,
    Jana Lozanoska

  55. Anon

    @Jana Lozanoska

    Putting aside your attempt to play down the state level support of FYROM government trying to portary themselves as related to ancient Macedonians (roughly akin to a Syrian claiming to be an “ethnic Tel Avian”, you conveniently forget to mention that all the nations you mention don’t have large numbers of their nationals making land claims against a neighboring state. (with endless claims that Macedonia Greece is “occupied”, “partitioned”, and “divided” not to mention endless “united Macedonia” references)

    The French do not claim London as “Solun” despite that it used to be Norman. They do not suggest Newton was ethnically French despite that is was a long time ago and that there is no racial pure nations (Nazi myths). Furthermore FYROM nationalists like Kris exist by the hundreds of thousands that are encouraged by FYROM’s state myths to see themselves “victims” to some bizarre 2200 years old conspiracy of being surpressed “Macedonians”)

    Laws are meant to serve justice not to be selectively chosen to act as loopholes for injustice. The article is ultimately about the name dispute. You are arguing for FYROM positions and selectively choosing to see the evidence you wish. (much like Kris who is in complete denial of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian past) That’s fine but that’s not objective reporting. That’s you being a nationalist while pretending to stand for legal principles.

    Lets not forget the fact FYROM nationalists constantly bury-US and the western world had absolutely no problem whatsoever not recognizing FYROM not so long ago- so there is precedence for objecting to a name on grounds when it is being manipulated for “aggressive intentions” against a neighbouring state.

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    Furthermore, if the name to a nation is absolute as you seem to be trying to claim- why did FYROM withdraw recognition of the Republic of China? A rather hypocritical stance no?

    Quote:
    “emphatically that there is but one China in the world, that the Government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government representing the whole of China and that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the Chinese territory”
    http://en.wikipedia.org
    /wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#P.R._China_and_R.O._China
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm

  56. Anon

    The FYROM government are quick to claim they don’t have land claims against Greece. Of course 20 years ago (before widespread recognition) FYROM’s government officials were assuring 3rd parties….

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    Yet today doing the exact opposite….

    “In the peak-time slot every Saturday evening on TV in Skopje, Atanas Pcelarski explains the meaning of words from the world of Classical Antiquity in modern Macedonian. Macedonia is the source of the world. Languages, themes about God, religion, the legal system, they all stem from Macedonia,” he declares. The Macedonia of Classical Antiquity and the modern republic are one and the same.”

    “It is the not just the media that pushes the theme of Macedonia’s Classical identity. Monuments to Classical heroes are springing up in town after town. The capital, Skopje, is to erect a 22-metre-tall monument to Alexander next year. His statue already crowns the centre of Prilep. “In a few months time, a statue of Alexander’s father, Philip the Second, will dominate the main square in Bitola. The main highway to the Greek border has been renamed “Alexander of Macedon”, while the main sports stadium in Skopje has been renamed after Philip.

    “Official data show the authorities are paying thousands of people to work on archaeological projects. The director of the Bureau for Protection of Cultural Heritage, archaeologist Pasko Kuzman, says their work will prove that today’s Macedonians descend from the Macedonians of Classical Antiquity – not from the Slavs who migrated into the Balkans from the 5th-century onwards.”
    http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/opinions.php?nav_id=63275

    “In an interview in his office, sitting next to a wall-size copy of a 13th-century icon of Alexander, Kuzman
    insisted that Greece had stolen the conqueror’s legacy from Macedonia, not the other way around.” (Pasko Kuzman is current head of government’s cultural/archeology department in FYROM)
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702653_2.html

    Unfortunately many people haven’t caught on that what FYROM government officials say publicly to them and what they encourage their citizens to think are two radically different behaviors.

    Here is the current PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of “United Macedonia”-that includes 1/3 of Greek territory annexed,
    http://www.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg

    A quick 30 second Google search reveals thousands upon thousands of “United Macedonia” references and maps.
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=united+Macedonia&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4692a3ff86a6f392

    You “forget” to mention that part Jana? Since when did it become acceptable behavior for one nation to attempt to usurp the identity of another? Since when did it become acceptable to claim large sections of a neighboring state?

    Some well meaning third parties might have been fooled through sweet talk about “minority” rights by FYROM officials (who frankly have one of the worst minority records in Europe). Some well meaning anti-nationalist types also came to the wrong conclusion that a nation can have a name and not attempt to create a past with it. (in effect they’ve been working for the cause ultra-nationalism by encouraging such conditions to grow). And of course there are those that are simply prejudiced against Greeks (including some that claim to support minorities). Those types simply hate us because they are tired of hearing Greeks did this or that in the ancient past (i.e. they are so insecure with themselves they can’t stand the thought of a “real” Greek because they stereotype us all as peasants living “myths” or filled with hubris)

    I’m not buying any of it. FYROM needs to shape up or it will continue to generate Balkan instability. Being part of the EU or Nato won’t change that. Greece and Turkey are part of Nato but it didn’t stop Turkey from invading Cyprus 30 years ago. Israel and Turkey and US are all supposed to be on the same side. Hasn’t created stability between them either.

    The bottom line is FYROM cannot build a identity on historical fabrications. For as long as it does it will be inherently unstable and generate hostility in the Balkans. The only way for FYROM to be stable is to confront its Bulgarian past and stop trying to build narratives to ancient Macedonia that simply do not exist. The closest there is to that is the prior Greek-speaking Byzantine Themata not the Slavic Bulgarians that opposed them.

  57. kris

    anon, you really think Macedonians will come and take over the Aegean, don’t you?
    if you think that, no name change will help your fears!
    but just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not after you :)
    I think greeks are really afraid of the 1,5 -2 million Macedonians within their borders whose
    emancipation is helped by the very existence of the Republic of Macedonia,
    but the time of ethnic cleansing is gone for a NATO/EU member like Greece,
    so why not thwart the problem by eliminating Macedonians all together, by taking their name for example?
    good plan, on the surface acceptable for the other “democracies” but as we can see
    it’s going hard!
    it’s impossible to lift the name Macedonia from Macedonians!

  58. Anon

    @kris

    You write: “you really think Macedonians will come and take over the Aegean, don’t you?”

    No. I think you (mostly) former ethnic Bulgarians might try again though. While FYROM itself cannot do anything it didn’t stop it in the past from eventually forming regional alliances. (see the atrocities committed on Greeks by IMRO ultra-nationalists that aligned with the Axis and other IMRO ultra-nationalists aligned with the communists to grasp just how extreme nationalism is in FYROM)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg

    You write: “but just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not after you) I think greeks are really afraid of the 1,5 -2 million Macedonians within their borders”

    There are 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece… plus millions more Greeks than consider ancient Macedonia part of their cultural identity. There are also roughly 10,000 FYROM nationalists living in Greece that wish to be known as “ethnic Macedonians” living in Greece. Macedonians of course disagree that people that identify with the former ethnic Bulgarians living in what was once the ancient Kingdom of Peonian should be allowed to usurp their ethnic identity. The Rainbow Party of Greece, which claims to supports the “human rights” of Macedonians, received less than 5000 votes in all of Macedonia last election. Apparently Macedonians aren’t buying the historical gibberish promoted by ultra-nationalists like you. My guess for this is because millions of them can actually read many of the Greek inscriptions found on ancient Macedonian artifacts. Can you say the same?

    You write: “emancipation is helped by the very existence of the Republic of Macedonia, but the time of ethnic cleansing is gone for a NATO/EU member like Greece,”

    Greece does not “ethnically cleanse” but it will fight wars like any nation to prevent itself from being ethnically cleansed or by aggressive states looking to expand. (e.g. by people like you that deny our identity since it interferes with your “ancient Macedonian” racially purity state myth)

    You write: “the name Macedonia from Macedonians!”

    I actually agree. Seeing as the modern and ancient regions of Macedonia is located physically in Greece, that modern Macedonians in Greece still speak a Greek dialect (passed down to them by the prior Byzantine Themata), given in the 19th century you freely called yourselves ethnic Bulgarians… I would just argue that our Macedonians have a far far better claim than you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia.

    Don’t blame Greeks because your own national heroes considered their ethnic roots Bulgarian. (something extreme nationalists like you hide from)

    Again Krste Misirkov wrote “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Or how about in 1908 where he writes he is looking to “serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”?
    “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

    Or when he states “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”. Why would he need to qualify with “Bulgarians” if there was some pure ethnic Macedonian identity?
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    Or how about what FYROM nationalists today call an “ethnic macedonian” uprising. Misirkov describe it as an uprising lead by Bulgarians.
    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    Or why would Misirkov state that you used to call yourselves Bulgarians?
    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    Why would Misirkov claim that a “Macedonian slav nationality has NEVER existed”?
    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Why would Mirsirkov state “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    Or how about your other great “Ethnic Macedonian” hero Gotse Delchev.

    Here are the BMARC, statutes co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other ethnic Bulgarians you today claim were actually “ethnic Macedonians”. (which is a blatant lie)

    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

    Even the NY Times and London Times reported Delchev’s death as an ethnic Bulgarian in 1903.
    http://tinyurl.com/mxfcqq

    Delchev and Misirkov are FYROM’s own national heroes right Kris?

  59. kris

    anon, you are taking things out of contest, again to serve your propaganda!
    Delchev and Misirkov were fighting for an independent Macedonia, thats why they were sabotaged by bulgarians.
    Delchev for one was from the part of Macedonia you greeks occupy today!
    I don’t think at 1902 Delchev for a second thought that his motherland would become greek territory,
    nor did he think Macedonia had anything to do with Greece!
    he surely knew the ethnic make up, as he traveled around with his troops,
    why would he fight for liberation of Macedonia (including the Aegean part of Macedonia), if the people there were greeks?
    and if you think there are only 10, 000 Macedonians in Greece, well then, you should have no worries whatsoever:)

  60. Anon

    @kris

    You write: “You are taking things out of contest, again to serve your propaganda”

    It is ultra-nationalists like you that are taking things out of context. Ask yourself why does virtually every 3rd party historian on earth say you have essentially nothing to do with ancient Macedonians? (except the ones in FYROM of course)

    Take for example Loring Danforth. He’s a long time support of FYROM right?

    a. He consistently portrays Greeks as oppressors and FYROM nationalists as victims in his books. (This despite that Greeks human rights record has usually been substantially better than FYROMs throughout the 20th century and even today)

    b. He “forgets” to mention in his books that even his own country in the 1940s claimed your ethnic identity is due to communist propaganda. He “forgets” to mention IMRO leadership that aligned themselves with the Nazis and Bulgaria in forcibly occupying Macedonia and MURDERED many Greeks in the process (just prior to the Greek civil war)

    c. He’s claimed (falsely) that there was a “consensus” (his word) among scholars that ancient Macedonians weren’t Greeks (which is exactly the position you FYROM nationalists hold right?)

    d. He shows up at your “ethnic Macedonian” conferences constantly denouncing Greeks and writes letters of support to your self-proclaimed “human rights” websites (aka “Human rights” for you alone. To hell with the 25% of your country that is Albanian. Don’t dare admit your Bulgarian heritage in FYROM-could get you killed. And of course, you undermine the identity of Macedonians in Greece since it blows away your state myths)

    Danforth can hardly be accused of being an “ethnic cleanser” or “racist” against FYROM nationalists. (which is the exact way FYROM nationalist extremists like you smear anyone that dare questions your historical fabrications) Lets see what he says about your claimed ancient Macedonian roots.

    “The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)

    “Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD”
    http://www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm

  61. Nikolaos

    So Guys you are trying to tell me that the various coins and other artefacts that have been found in Asia don’t have greek words in them?
    So why I and every Greek can read them? Nobody answered to me why Alexander was so passionate about Greek culture and language and not his Macedonian Language and culture? Why he chose Greek language to promote and his Macedonian? what happened to his powerful Macedonian inheritance. And don’t come to me with two or three words untranslated from here and there.

    Come on guys, my questions where simple, I didn’t attack anybody, ok? And what is this nonsense about Alexander speaking Modern Macedonian? What’s that? Your language is Bulgarian to me… Maybe I need to do a bit of reading as you say, but I can come with facts any day and wave them in your faces. Greeks still speak the natural continuation of the ancient Greek language today… Fact. Alexander did not speak Bulgarian I’m afraid and that’s a historical fact.

    Facts: Alexander worshipped greeks, his parents were greeks, studied with greeks, showed greek culture (cousine etc.) to the ancient lands, called himself a greek, he almost took a photograph kissing Aphrodite. Come on! just because people live nowadays in a place vaguely in the place of ancient macedonia, doesn’t mean that they are descendants of macedonians buy trying to change ancient history.

    I’m off to have a frappe in Salonika.

  62. kris

    anon and Nikolaos, the question is not whether we are Slavs,
    yes of course we are Slavs, the question is whether Slavs really came in the 5th century
    cause there is no solid proof of that, Russians have said a million times that there is nothing behind the Karpathians
    etymologists, linguists, genetics tests have said a million times that there is a CONTINUATION of the people in the Blakans since the Neolithic times. that’s all contrary to the theory of the “coming of the Slavs”
    and don’t forget, we have been called Macedonians for a long, long time, as a matter of fact ALWAYS.
    there are documents in every century that address us as Macedonians and you as Greeks,
    here are some document examples that predate Tito, Misirkov etc, just to clear your “confusion”

    1878

    From the record of the Imperial Russian secret archives on the arrangement and government of the Balkan regions.

    …Count Shuvalov demands that all the necessary measures for pacification of Macedonia be undertaken. For its purpose, it would be desirable to send competent agents there, and to proclaim to the Macedonians on behalf of the Governor, the Emperor, that His Highness is concerned about their fate, as much as for the other Slavs, and they will be granted the same freedom as that of the Bulgarians, now already liberated….

    Dokumenti iz sekretnite arhivi na Ruskoto pravitelstvo. Sofia 1893, p.11-12.

    ******
    Bertrandon de la Brocquiere met Macedonians in 1432-1433!

    ******
    Macedonians found in Jerusalem in the 14th century!
    Here is an interesting book that was published between 1357 and 1371.

    The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, by Sir John Mandeville.

    This country and land of Jerusalem hath been in many divers nations’ hands, and often, therefore, hath the country suffered much tribulation for the sin of the people that dwell there. For that country hath been in the hands of all nations; that is to say, of Jews, of Canaanites, Assyrians, Persians, Medes, Macedonians, of Greeks, Romans, of Christian men, of Saracens, Barbarians, Turks, Tartars, and of many other divers nations; for God will not that it be long in the hands of traitors ne of sinners, be they Christian or other. And now have the heathen men held that land in their hands forty year and more; but they shall not hold it long, if God will.

    *****

    Macedonians noted in the Gesta Hungarorum, 10th century!
    Here is the Latin version of were the Macedonians are noted:

    De ciuibus bulgarorum et macedonum

    Transactis quibusdam diebus zuard et cadusa cum omni exercitu suo, eleuatis uexillis signiferis aquam danubij transnauigauerunt, et castrum borons ceperunt, deinde ad castrum scereducy iuerunt. Audientes hoc ciues bulgarorum et macedonum, tumerunt ualde a facie eorum. Tunc omnes incole illius miserunt nuntios suos cum donarris multis, ut terram sibi subiugarent, et filios suos in obsides traderunt. Zuard et cadusa paci fauentes et dona et obsides eorum accipientes eos quasi suum proprium populum in pace dimisserunt. Ipsi uero ceperunt ecuitare ultra portam Wacil, et castrum philippi regis ceperunt, deinde totam terram usque ad cleopatram ciuitatem sibi subiugauerunt. Et sub potestate sua habuerunt totam terram a ciuitate durasu usque ad terram rachy. Et zuardu in eadem terra duxit sibi uxorem, et populus ille qui nunc dicitur sobamogera, mortuo duce zuard in grecia remansit. Et ideo dictus est soba secundum grecos id est stultus populus, quia mortuo domino suo uiam non dilexit redire ad patriam suam.

    and so on and so forth….

  63. Donna

    Thanks again, Jana Lozanovska, for responding to all commentators. At the
    very beginning I questioned Anon if he read the article – not realizing
    I was dealing with an attitude of a child. Let Anon have his feel of lies.
    Say anything you want, Anon, you’re not worth my time for any more explanations and restatubg the hystory.

  64. Anon

    @kris

    You write: “yes of course we are Slavs:

    Are you sure you are Slavic? Seems to me even your own high ranking government official can’t even agree about that anymore. The secondary question of course is… did ancient Macedonians have a Slavic identity?

    You write: “were are some document examples that predate Tito, Misirkov etc, just to clear your “confusion””

    It is you that is “confused” (to the point of delusion) because you only select passages that suit your narrative and pretend the passages that clearly see otherwise don’t exist. For instance why would Krste Misirkov say this?

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Or this: “Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”
    http://misirkov.org/preface.htm

    Or this: “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm
    Or this: “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Or this (in 1924) “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    etc… etc…

    You write: “Macedonians noted in the Gesta Hungarorum, 10th century!”

    This is exactly the sort of ignorance that makes it impossible to deal rationally with national extremists like you.

    “Macedonia” in the middle ages refers to the GREEK-SPEAKING themata of the Byzantine state. The Macedonia its referencing isn’t even located in FYROM, its in THRACE! You don’t even realize that your evidence of “Macedonians” points to our Greek-speaking Greco-Roman Byzantine ancestors not your Bulgarian ones Like Tsar Samual.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria

    You seemingly prefer to live in nationalist myths and hate rather than reality Kris.

  65. Anon

    @Donna says:”Let Anon have his feel of lies.”

    And you can continue to promote unfair hatred of Greeks for the sake of your nationalist myths. Delchev’s, Mirsirkov’s, Gruev’s, Tatarchev’s, Hadzhinikolov’s etc… etc… words will all still be there tomorrow no matter who “recognizes” what. Countless ancient Macedonian artifacts will be still be written in Greek tomorrow too. The artifacts that list Macedonian names on Greek-only Olympic sporting events will be there too.

    Not only do nationalists like you harm Greeks with your historical absurdities but you also harm your own poor children who like you will also be tortured by their identity. All for the sake of a pack of lies promoted by some politicians with an ethnic insecurity complex.

    (Statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other future IMRO members)
    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN , independent of gender

    (Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs states one of the principles of the IMRO’s foundation)
    “The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.”

    (Hristo Tatarchev – founding member BMARC/IMRO)
    “We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria…”

    (Krste Misirkov) “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    Krste Crvenkovski, President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, to Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria (May 19, 1967)
    “And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    These are the words of YOUR national heroes and prominent politicians Donna. Are they part of the conspiracy against you too?

  66. Cannon

    This is for Anon.
    Listen mate…..you blabber on too much…..blah blah blah…..but I don’t blame you because thats how you’ve been educated about Macedonia…..but I don’t need a history lesson…….so I’ll just comment on one of your points.
    You say “There are 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece… plus millions more Greeks than consider ancient Macedonia part of their cultural identity”…..what Macedonians are you talking about, the people from Asia Minor that first came to Macedonia in the 1920’s or the indiginous Macedonians that were already there……I think your a bit confused mate…..I’ve met plenty of people like you……they are afraid of something……what are you afraid of when you blabber on about Macedonia….obviously it’s something otherwise you wouldn’t blabber on so much…..and at the same time trying to convince yourself that Macedonia is Greek……tell me deepest thoughts.
    Their is a saying “It’s only a lie if you believe it”…….in your case….. obviously.
    Oh and just one more thing…..are you one of the decendants of the people that came from Asia Minor.
    Please make your answer simple……not you typical blah blah blah…..
    And yes….I’m Macedonian because I can’t be anything else.
    Regards

  67. Cannon

    Hey Nikolaos,
    Next time you have a frappe in Salonika…..think about where your family decendants are from, as they cannot be from Macedonia…….tell me where they are from and don’t lie as your nose will get bigger.
    Also, the Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..
    PS:- Grik coffee is really Turkish coffee but renamed…..just like many other things…..baklava etc etc etc……
    Hope you enjoyed your frappe…..
    And yes…..I’m Macedonian because I can’t be anything else.
    Regards

  68. Bitolski

    I guess the citizens of the “Former Otoman Province of Greece” who by the way are not descendants of the ancient greeks but are Albanians, Vlah and Pontic Turks and some Slavs…can not help them self’s every time Macedonia is mentioned and have to post the same cut and paste bull@#it from there Nazi government ( so called Greek) propaganda.Sick and tired from this fake nation of mixture of ethnicities who have in there mind that they are descendants of the Ancient Greeks. there is no use to reply to this morons my Macedonians…they have sold their own background to be this Modern Greek fake nation in 1832. I just wonder why did the Great Powers when they created the modern Greek state at first wanted to declare the Albanian dialect that was spoken around the village of Athen to be the constitutional language of the new state?

  69. john

    @Cannon

    “lso, the Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..”

    I will let 400 accredited historians from world famouse universities such as Oxford and Cambridge explain this battle for you. It is little different than the falsified version in Fyrom and communist Yugoslavia

    “In the same way that Greeks fought one another so many times including the most famous example of the Spartans vs. the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War.

    But Philip was actually at Chaironeia on the invitation of the Delphic Amphiktyonic Council. Already in 346 B.C. he had settled the Third Sacred War in favor of the Council, and been awarded a seat on that council (where no non-Greek ever served). Now, in 338 B.C., the Amphikytonic Council called upon him again, and it is Demosthenes, the Philip-hater, who records the actual decree of invitation from the Council (De Corona 18,155).

    The two sides in the battle were totally Greek. One side (the ultimate losers) was led by Athens and Thebes which together supplied more than 60% of the forces. They were joined by Corinth, Megara, Akarnania, Phokis, Achaia, Euboia, Leukas, and Kerkyra (Demosthenes, De Corona 18.237). Note the missing: Sparta, Elis, Aigina, Epidauros, and many more.

    The other side was dominated by the Macedonians, but there were substantial numbers of Thessalians as well as Argives and Arkadians (Demosthenes, Letters 4.8). In other words, as throughout so much of their history, the Battle of Chaironeia was Greek vs. Greek.”

    http://www.macedonia-evidence.org

    This is just an other evidence that the ethnic Macedonian identity that was created in communist Yugoslavia is build up by historical fabrication. Every historical figure in the area have been falsified in Fyroms history books. Hence Bulgarians like Tsar Samuil , Delchev , Saint Naum , Kuber have became etnik Macedonians. Greeks like Alexander and Cyril have been rebranded to ethnic Macedonians.

    The question that should be asked is that in a democratic world can/should identities bee based on historical fraud? I will let a historian answer that question

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”

    George Santayana

  70. john

    @Bitolski

    “by the way are not descendants of the ancient greeks but are Albanians, Vlah and Pontic Turks and some Slavs…”

    Here I give you a list of Greek Macedonians through each time period. It seems your statement is not true. Maybe you can give me a list of ethnik Macedonians from the same time periods becuase I cand find a single one! It seems the historians are right, your identity was created mainly in communist Yugoslavia

    Alexander the Great, a Greek king who hellenised Asia, Aristotle (philosopher), Poseidippus (poet, epigrammatist), Callisthenes (historian), St Sopater from Veria (1st C BC), Antipater of Thessalonica (late 1st c. BC, epigrammatic poet and governor of the city), Philippus of Thessalonica (late 1st c. AD, epigrammatic poet and compiler of the Greek Anthology), Saint Hermes (Thessaloniki, Rome 120 AD), Martyr Theodora (Thessaloniki, Rome 123 AD), Athryilatus of Thasos (1–2nd c. AD, physician), Agape, Chionia, and Irene († 304, Saints), Saint Demetrius (early 4th C), Basil I the Macedonian (811–886, Byzantine emperor, ruled 867–886, founder of the Macedonian dynasty), Nikephoros Bryennios (1062–1137, general, statesman, historian), Michael and Andreas Palaiologos (1342–1350, leaders of the Zealots’ regime of Thessalonica), Paul I of Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarch (337–339), Demophilus of Constantinople Ecumenical Patriarch (370–380), Saint Methodius (826–885, main translator of the Bible into Old Church Slavonic), Saint Cyril (827–869, creator of the Glagolithic alphabet, Christianized the Slavs), Philotheus Kokkinos (1300–1379, Ecumenical Patriarch), Matthew Blastares (c.1290- 1360,monk, canonist), Nilus Cabasilas (1298–1363, theologian), Nicholas Cabasilas (ca.1319–1391, mystic theologian), Macarius Macres (1382–1431, theologian), Isidore of Kiev, Thessaloniki, Metropolitan of Kiev (1433–1458 and Ecumenical Patriarch,1450–1453), Stobaeus (5th c. AD, Anthologist of Greek Authors), Macedonius of Thessalonica (the Consul, 6th C, Epigrammatist of Greek Anthology), John Kaminiates (904, Historian on the sack of Thessalonica by the Saracens), Saint Theodora of Arta, (Servia 1210, Arta 1280), Demetrius Triclinius (ca.1300, philologist, astronomer), Thomas Magister (ca. 1275—1325 philologist), Gregory Acindynus (1300–1348, Theologian), Demetrius Cydones(1324–1397, Scholastic theologian), Prochorus Cydones (1330–1369, Scholastic theologian), Nikephoros Choumnos 1783–1854, born in Kozani, teacher in the Greek community of Vienna and Pest, he took part in the Greek War of Independence), Minas Minoidis (born in Edessa, he taught Ancient Greek language and literature in Paris), Athanasios Stageiritis (from Stagira, Professor of Greek language at the Royal Academy in Vienna, publisher of the fortnightly literary journal “Kalliope” in Vienna from 1819 to 1821), Anastasios Michail (Member of Berlin’s Academy of Sciences), Georgios Lassanis (1793–1870, scholar and politician), Nicholaos Dragoumis (1809– 1879, politician and writer from Kastoria), Markides Pouliou (brothers from Siatista, published the first Greek newspaper Ephemeris in Vienna in(ca. 1250–1327, scholar and physicist), Konstantinos Armenopoulos (1320 – ca.1385, Jurist), John Anagnostes (1430, Historian on the capture of Thessalonica by the Ottomans), Theodorus Gaza (c. 1400 – 1475, Renaissance humanist and translator of Aristotle), Mazaris, (15th century, writer from Thessaloniki), Manuel Panselinos (painter, iconographer of Macedonian Renaissance), George Kallierges (painter), Michael Astrapas and Eutychios (iconograhers), John Staurakios, (hagiographer), Andronikos Kallistos (1400–1486, teacher of Greek literature in Bologna, Rome, Florence, Paris and London) …

    continued) Ioannis Kottounios (1572–1657, Founder the Kottounian Hellinomouseion, Professor of Philosophy in Padua), Konstantinos Kallokratos (b. 1589, Teacher and poet), Kallinikos Manios (1624–1665, founder of the first school in Veroia), Georgios Parakeimenos (director of Kozani’s school, Physician and Preacher), Sevastos Leontiadis (1690–1765, Director of Kastoria’s school), Michail Papageorgiou (1727–1796, He taught in his birthplace, Selitsa, today Eratyra, Meleniko,Vienna and Budapest), Dimitrios Karakasis (b. 1734, physician in Vienna, Larisa, Siatista, Kozani, Bucharest), Manassis Iliadis (early 18th century – 1785, born in Meleniko, he taught philosophy and physics at the Bucharest Academy), Konstantinos Michail (Philosopher, Physician and Linguist), Dimitrios Darvaris (1754- 1823, born in Kleisoura, Kastoria, publisher of a Greek grammar), Charissios Megdanis (1768–1823, born in Kozani, priest, doctor, writer), Georgios Sakellarios (1765–1838, chief physician at the court of Ali Pasha) Michail Perdikaris (1766–1828,born in Kozani, physician and scholar), Athanasios Christopoulos (1772–1847, poet, scholar and “Spokesman for foreign cases” in Wallachia), Efronios Raphael Papagiannoussi Popovits (1774–1853, born in Kozani, Scholar and Benefactor, among others of the Charta of Rigas), Grigorios Zalykis (1777–1820, Thessaloniki, writer, founder of “Ellenoglosson Xenodochion”), Georgios Rousiadis ( 1791), Ioannis Pantazidis from Krusevo (1821–1900, Professor in University of Athens in Greek literature), Margaritis Dimitsas (1829–1903, writer from Achrida), Sophocles Garbolas 1833–1911, writer, journalist, he published in 1875 the first Greek newspapers in Thessalonica, Ermis (Hermes) and Pharos tis Makedonias (Lighthouse of Macedonia)), Theodoros Natsinas (c. 1872 scholar and director of the Marasleion School of Thessaloniki).
    and many many more

  71. Anon

    @cannon

    You write: “Listen mate…..you blabber on too much…..blah blah blah”

    You are one to talk. You said absolutely nothing in response to my quotes directly from the lips of your own national heroes… referencing their ethnic roots as BULGARIANS!

    Go back to listening to bizarre “historians” at Mina and Maknews rant their hatred towards Greeks. Surely it is the dirty Greek’s fault that you are in utter denial over Misirkov. Delchev et al’s words. Siurely it is the dirty Greek’s fault the communists erased your Bulgarian identity. Surely it the dirty Greeks fault you chose to speak you Slavic dialect rather than Greek…. the language of Macedonians.

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” (U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

  72. Anon

    @Bitolski

    Bitol-ski… sure sounds like an ethnic Buglarian name to me.

    Well champ, there was never a place called “Former Otoman Province of Greece”. However, there was a place that was called Vardar prior to communists renaming of that region into the “People’s Republic of Macedonia” in 1944.
    http://www.danstopicals.com/fyrom.htm

    Perhaps you can explain to the world why Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) said to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) on May 19, 1967…

    “And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    You go on to slander Greeks as “Nazis”. I seem to recall Greeks actually fought the Nazis. I also seem to recall it was the head of IMRO Ivan Mihailov and many others in IMRO that joined Bulgaria and the Axis in occupying Macedonia Greece during WW2 no? The same IMRO head Ivan Mihailov that colluded with the SS no? (notice the picture of Hitler along with the map of “united Macedonia”)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg

    You write: “Sick and tired from this fake nation of mixture of ethnicities”

    No ethnicity is a pure race you fricken fascist. In every nation and people on earth mixing occurs and people eventually identify with the common culture. YOu think Germans didn’t mix with Poles, Scandinavians, French, Hungarians and many many others? You think the english didn’t mix with Irish, scottish, french, Germans and others? Get a grip man.

    We are Greeks because of our location. We are Greeks because of our culture. We are Greeks because of the balance of our history. We are Greeks because of our very language. We are Greeks because we identify with the culture and heroes. If some Greek doesn’t see himself as Greek, absolutely no one is stopping him from calling himself something else.

    So how do you demonstrate you are “Macedonian” other than ranting “I am macedonian”?

    Do you attempt to speak Greek? Hell no. You fear the Greek language.

    Do you attempt to keep an accurate record of ancient Macedonia? Negative. According to your “historians” ancient Macedonians weren’t self-identifying Greeks.

    Do you call yourself Greek like ancient Macedonians did? Of course not. You hate Greeks.

    Do you give cities Greek name? Since when the Macedonian name for Thessaloniki “Solun”?

    From what I can tell ultra-nationalists like you care absolutely nothing for Macedonia. What you care about is replacing your ethnic insecurity complex with megalomania and satiating your hatred of Greeks.

  73. Bitolski

    @Anon
    You wrote: “We are Greeks because of our location. We are Greeks because of our culture. We are Greeks because of the balance of our history. We are Greeks because of our very language. We are Greeks because we identify with the culture and heroes. If some Greek doesn’t see himself as Greek, absolutely no one is stopping him from calling himself something else.”

    Thats all good…now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you.

    I don’t have to prove anything to you of how I feel and who I am. I know.
    The problem is if you know who you really are?
    You can brag on and on as much as you like, we were, we are and we will be Macedonian and the only thing that you can do about it is continue with you copy and paste bull@#it and try to convince your selfs that you really are who you claim to be. Good luck.
    Macedonia for the Macedonians.
    Anon get a life man…there is nothing you can do about it. The earlier you come to terms that we the Macedonians exist the better for everybody to move on and use our mental energy in doing positive things.
    This answer goes for the rest of the so called “Greeks” on this page.
    I just feel sorry for you guys…thats all!

  74. Bitolski

    To all the so called “greeks” on this page…please read the book:
    “That Greece might still be free” from William St. Clare
    books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1906924007…
    Read it first and then if you have something to say post it in your own words and not cut and paste. Have fun reading…trust me you will enjoy it.

  75. Bitolski

    To my ‘greek’ friends..please also read the following book:
    The Greek struggle for independence, 1821-1833 By Douglas Dakin

  76. Cannon

    You mention Bulagrians……we are not Bulagrians as we from Macedonia…..remembering we fought for an idependant Macedonia…..like British Statesman William Gladstone suggested way back on January 19th 1897…..Macedonia for Macedonians……he didn’t say Macedonia for the Bulagrians………………I can go on and on………
    BUT
    Anon…..mate…..your blabbering on again mate……and havn’t answered my question…..ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..what ethnicity runs through your veins….
    the truth for once will be nice.
    Also, if Macedonia is Greek as you suggest……the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC…..what does this mean to you…..and don’t fill me up with the shit that George Santayana is saying……

  77. Cannon

    George Santayana……you’ve got your opinion and have always been against the Macedonian ethnicity……I already know what your like…..
    All I can suggest to you is get off your high horse…..the world doesn’t revolve around Greece and the Greek schooling system has also brainwashed your mind……
    WHAT IS YOUR ETHNICITY GEORGE…..you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity…..what are you George……where are your decendants from George…..

  78. john

    @Cannon

    “Thats all good…now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you”

    I provided with a list of historical Greek macedonians. So the it should be easy for you to provide one yourself. Or is it true what accredited historians writes. Your ancestors where freely determined Bulgarians.It was in communist Yugoslavia Tito promoted a ethnik Macedonian ethnicity and the region vardar was renamed to Macedonia. He had two aims 1, disconnect Bulgarians in Yugoslavia to their motherland Bulgarian 2. Create a reason to start claiming the territory Greek Macedonia

    The western allies where protesting against the creation of a new identity with aggresive intentions against Greece:

    “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

    Accredited historians knows the slav Macedonian identity was very recent created. It has not existed for thousands of years according to ultra naionalist in Fyrom:

    “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one”

    Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999

    The historians also describes very clearly how the history of this new identity was falsified. Basically all Bulgarian historic figures was renamed to “Macedonians”. Today Fyroms ultra nationalist (incl Fyroms government) have gone one step furthur and also added ancient Greek and Egyptian history(Claiming their slavic/Bulgarian language is ancient and written on the Rosetta stone). Of course any of this is supported by accredited historians

    “The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun).
    The obviously plagiarized historical argument of the Macedonian nationalists for a separate Macedonian ethnicity could be supported only by linguistic reality, and that worked against them until the 1940s. Until a modern Macedonian literary language was mandated by the socialist-led partisan movement from Macedonia in 1944, most outside observers and linguists agreed with the Bulgarians in considering the vernacular spoken by the Macedonian Slavs as a western dialect of Bulgarian. ”

    Dennis P. Hupchick, “Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe”, Palgrave Macmillan, 1995.

    Jana is fabrication of history considered good-neighbourly relations?

  79. john

    @Cannon

    “WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF when the word Macedonia or Macedonians is mentioned…”

    Our concerns have been the same since Tito created a new macedonian identity in communist Yugoslavs. It is not soemthing new. It has going on for decades:

    “For Macedonia to be recognized as an independent state, it would be necessary to change its name […] It is historically proven that the Yugoslavian Democracy of Macedonia was created by Stalin, Tito and Dimitrov, aiming at the stealthy removal of a large part of Northern Greece. This Democracy was used during the period 1944-1949 in order to destabilise Greece.”

    Thomas Niles, US Ambassador, statement on the 23rd June 1992 to the SubCommittee of US Congress, Eleutherotypia newspaper, June 24, 1992

    Because of aggressive intentions against Greece

    “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec.

    Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these “radical Slavic factions” decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world…”

    T.J. Winnifrith, “Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments”, Duckworth,1995.

    Personaly I am afraid that historical fabrication that is created in Fyrom becomes a standard in the world. Then we are back in Nazi Germany where governments can create historical fabrications just to usurp unrelated countries history, identity and land. Then we have an uncivilazed world where we dont learn from our past. That would be scary

  80. Anon

    Bitolski says: “now try change the word “Greek” with “Macedonian” and that will be my answer to you”

    a. you are not located physically in ancient Macedonia (the original part is located in Greece)

    b. Your langauge has virtually nothing to do with the Greek spoken by ancient “Macedonians.

    c. Your national heros used to freely self identify as “ethnic bulgarians” not “ethnic Macedonians”

    You write: “Macedonia for the Macedonians”

    I agree completely. And ancient Paeonia for ethnic Bulgarians like you.

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

  81. Cannon

    Anon,
    I’ve heard it all before…….blah blah blah……it’s Greek propaganda…..just like it has been for the last 200 years…..
    ……and you havn’t answered my question…..ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..what ethnicity runs through your veins….
    the truth for once will be nice.

  82. Cannon

    John,
    Where did you pop out from…….trying to deny the Macedonian ethnicity….
    WHAT IS YOUR ETHNICITY JOHN…..you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity…..what are you John…..where are your decendants from…..

  83. Anon

    @Cannon says:

    And I’ve heard your “greek propaganda” argument from countless Risto clones that sound exactly like you. Not only are you a hypocrite that denies our identity identity (since your ancient Macedonian state propaganda requires it) but you cowardly hide from the very real reality of FYROM’s ethnic Bulgarian roots.

    Instead of changing the subject in desperation again why not explain to us (and the historians of the world) what your own national hero Misirkov, Delchev, et al exactly meant by words suggesting on many many occasions that their roots were ethnic Bulgarian?

    Krste Misirkov:

    “We are BULGARIANS, more BULGARIANS than the BULGARIANS in BULGARIAN themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called BULGARIANS?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian BULGARIANS”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves BULGARIANS.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    “We did indeed call ourselves “BULGARIANS” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which EVERYONE INCLUDING THEMSELVES DESCRIBES AS THE BULGARIAN nation, two smaller units might be formed: a BULGARIAN and a Macedonian one?”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “We are BULGARIAN more than the BULGARIANS in BULGARIA. The population of Skopje is pure BULGARIAN. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our BULGARIAN consciousness.”
    http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between BULGARIANS and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as BULGARIAN the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and BULGARIA there was no mention of the BULGARIAN Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a BULGARIAN, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a BULGARIAN national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “The first objection — that a MACEDONIAN SLAV NATIONALITY HAS NEVER EXISTED existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    Gotse Delchev:

    “We are BULGARIANS” (In his own handwriting)
    http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/images/stories/history/makedonia/2009_A/letter.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotse_Delchev

    “Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are BULGARIANS and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan… ” (Gotse Delchev in letter to Nikola Malashevski, Jan. 5 1899)

    (Excerpt from the 1896 statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev)
    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

    Gruev, Hristo Tatarchev, Petar Pop Arsov and other future IMRO members were part of the BULGARIAN-ONLY BMARC no?.

    Or let me guess. You are you going to change the subject and claim it is my “propaganda”?

  84. Anon

    @Cannon… the ethnic cleanser writes:

    “you say you are Greek……there is no such ethnicity”
    “what ethnicity runs through your veins”

    Further evidence “Cannon” has a fascist’s view of identity and is out to ethnically cleanse Greeks for the sake of his nationalists myths. He obviously equates the word “race” = “ethnicity” (a Greek word ironically). What about culture? What about history? What about language? What about location? What exactly do you have in common with ancient Macedonians dear Cannon… that your Bulgarian relatives don’t? How do you demonstrate you Macedonian identity because just spewing endless hatred of Greeks because of the atrocities committed on your minds by your communist grandfathers?

    For instance, is any one stopping your from speaking Greek… the language of Macedonians? Seems to me you are against anti-Macedonian culture and much prefer your Bulgarian culture. You are the one’s that refer to Thessaloniki as “Solun” right? Rather odd you’d prefer a Bulgarian name over the original Macedonian one no?

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made. ” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    “We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church.”
    (Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician – “Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia” – A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

  85. cannon

    Anon……..gee you can go on…….I’ll make it simple for you…..as you have been avoiding my question…..
    ARE YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..
    the truth for once will be nice.

  86. Phillip

    Very short – the article is coprehensive and makes the point on what does good-neighbourly relations mean, and what does not.

    In the case of Greece their is a manipulation attempt to picture in white the EU-member country as always the good neighbour, and to picture in black Macedonia as non-EU-member state as always being the bad neighbour. Wrong !

    Macedonia is as good as Greece, and in addition being more mature and responsible in the context of the regional stability and cooperation.

  87. Anon

    @Cannon

    Wow. What a surprise. The wannabe ethnic cleanser changes the subject yet again when I point all your own national heroes admitted their ethnic BULGARIAN roots.

    That’s the fundamental difference between Greece and FYROM. 19th century Greeks actually believed themselves to be related to ancient Greeks-as did the Greco-Roman Byzantines who studied Greek philosophy, spoke Greek, and lived in the region of Greece (as opposed to say China). While the idea of pure races are nationalist myths, FIVE HUNDRED YEARS ago, well before the conspiracy theorists claim someone convinced us we were related to ancient Greeks, Byzantine scholar Georgius Gemistus Plethon wrote “we’re Greeks by genus, as our language and education testifies”. He was hardly alone.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

    By comparison, the “ethnic Macedonian” identity is built on conscious intentional fraud.

    e.g. (the words of YOUR leaders)
    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)

    e.g.
    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

    e.g.
    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    e.g.
    “And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.” – Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    e.g.
    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    e.g.
    Krste Misirkov: “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    e.g.
    Krste Misirkov: “The first objection — that A MACEDONIAN SLAV NATIONALITY HAS NEVER EXISTED — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    ….

    What Greek-haters and wanna-be ethnic cleansers like you simply don’t get dear Cannon, is Greeks could be the descendents of toads, and it would still not make an iota of difference in this dispute. Ancient Macedonia is located squarely in Greece not in ancient Peonia. Ancient macedonians spoke Greek-not your former Bulgarian dialect. Countless Ancient Macedonian artifacts that show the Greek character of the people aren’t going anywhere.

    It sure is easy for other people to “recognize” you. Not their countries on the line when it isn’t their countries being called “occupied” by a neighbouring state. Frankly, you Bulgarians bizarrely calling yourselves “ethnic Macedonians” out of the blue is roughly akin to calling yourselves “ethnic mayans” and proclaiming Mexico your “occupied” homeland. The irony is you claim persecution by Greeks for calling out your state fabrications, but your are the one’s ethnically cleansing yourselves (by assimilating Bulgarians into “ethnic Macedonians”)

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,” (FYROM national hero Krste Misirkov)
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    (Let me guess. You are going to change the subject again? Check back tomorrow to see if Misirkov’s words have changed.)

  88. Anon

    @Phillip

    You write: “in addition being more mature and responsible in the context of the regional stability and cooperation.”

    Rubbish. Allowing FYROM to create an entirely fabricated ethnic identity has only destabilized the Balkans. Despite 20 years that have gone by, widespread recognition, massive financial support for FYROM … it still has extremely poor relations with Bulgarians, Albanians, and Greeks (including virtually every minority within its boarders).

    The best solution would be if FYROM were eventually divided between Serbia, Albania and Bulgaria. This way the people in FYROM could celebrate their real ethnic roots, rather than the bizarre and dangerous historical narrative their current regime is trying to craft.

    Sacrificing the security of Greeks (especially Macedonians) to appease the break-away former Yugoslav republic’s threats of violence amounts to supporting blackmail.

  89. cannon

    Anon,
    Because you have been avoiding my question I will assume……in fact I won’t assume…..I know……YOU ONE OF THE DECENDANTS OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM ASIA MINOR…..so…..you are not “GREEK” or “GREEK MACEDONIAN” or what ever you want to call yourself……I don’t know what you are but you are probably a Vlah or a Turkish Orthodox christian……I’ve seen your type before as my mum’s family is from the Greek Occupied part of Macedonia…..
    You have just proved to everyone that YOU are a racist, hypocrit, liar……and most of all a facist of the Greek schooling system……
    PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS RESPONSE…….I DON’T WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU ANYMORE……

  90. john

    @cannon

    “Turkish Orthodox christian……”

    Once again you are posting ultra nationalistic ideas that have no base in history. The Greeks lived in asia minor before the OttomansTurks came from asia and took over. They where occupied by the Turks in the same way as your ancestors
    (that where self determined Bulgarians) where. Fyroms territory was occupied by the Turks during 550 years(250 more years then the Greeks from south of Greece) in the same way as the Greeks in asia minor. So if you dont call your own ancestors for “Turkish Orthodox christian” then it means you are driven by pure propaganda, ignorance and rascism. Something you have incomon with hundreds of thousands of extreme nationalist in Fyrom.

  91. Anon

    @john

    “Cannon” is in complete denial over his Bulgarian heritage (why he keeps changing the subject and ignoring evidence of our Greco-Roman Byzantine ancestors that considered themselves related to Greeks prior to Greece’s creation.

    The entire foundation of his “Macedonian” identity is essentially based on trying to deny Greeks their identity. In my opinion, he, and those like him, are literally trying to ethnically cleanse Greeks. (since the existence of Greeks blows a hole in their “Macedonian” identity.

    Those that claim it’s just a petty dispute over a name don’t have a clue what they are talking about. FYROM’s current government is creating a very dangerous situation in the Balkans for both FYROM moderates, for Albanians, for Bulgarians and for Greeks. By trying to portray themselves as related to ancient Macedonians the people who currently live in ancient Paeonia are trying to suggest various other Macedonia’s are their “occupied” homeland.

    It’s not Greece’s fault Yugoslavians couldn’t live with each other. It’s not Greece’s fault the communists did this to their minds. No ethnic group should have to face such open prejudice and threats to their territorial integrity. The blindness many have shown over FYROM’s behavior (e.g. no one says anything about the endless “united Macedonia” references), the habit of selecting only Greeks that call FYROM “Macedonians” for media interviews (e.g. not even one major news outlet has interviewed Miller’s group?) , and the major omissions in reporting FYROM’s history (e.g. The NY Times “forgetting” to mention their own newspaper reported Delchev’s death as a Bulgarian, “forgetting” to mention the US flatly denied the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”, etc…)…

    … all add up to clear evidence in my mind that Greeks are facing severe widespread prejudice these days. (I’m sad to say even amongst some that claim to support “human rights”) Instead of defending Greece from the obvious nationalist fabrications (championed by communist thugs like Tito and Stalin that murdered countless people)… some apparently are trying to sweep this under the rug by putting our historical claims at par. (in effect supporting potential ethnic cleansers in FYROM)

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
    U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

  92. Achilles

    The most practical issue of the dispute is the commercial use of the name.

    I come from Thessaloniki. If I want to launch a product or a service under the name Macedonian {e.g. cheese or wine) in the international market, and a professional from Skopje does the same, I guess that both of us would create a confusion to our potential clients.

    So, let’s start from this point. If Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language”, and if her compatriots share her point of view, it would be in our common interest to arrange this dispute, by leaving the use of the brand name Macedonia to the Greeks and by giving the brand name Slavomacedonian to the Slavomacedonians.

    On this basis, we can automatically end this dispute once and for all. Such a composite name would solve the issue and lower the tension. I know that it will not be easy, but it’s the only way to be done, at least to my opinion.

    Even we like it or not, our countries must learn to live together and this can be done only through cooperation and friendship. At least in these times of crisis and instability.

  93. Justice

    Hi Achilles,
    Finally someone from Greece has some common sense to say “even we like it or not, our countries must learn to live together and this can be done only through cooperation and friendship. At least in these times of crisis and instability.”
    I agree with the above however I do not agree with you on calling us slavomacedonian.
    How dare you say that, remember who came to Macedonia in 1912, it was not us Macedonians, we were already there, it was YOU that came, invaded and partitioned, it was YOU that took our land and done bad things things to my family and people…..YOU think we forget…..I bet your family is not even originally from Thessaloniki, just like the ones that live near my village, and everywhere in Macedonia, and you want us to change our name. I know a lot of families where the old people in the family didn’t even speak Greek, they spoke Turkish, and listened to Turkish music, even nowdays the music is the same, but the words are in Greek, but slowly the Turkish tongue is disappearing, being replaced by Greek, and you want us to change our name.
    You change your name as you are not Macedonian, but an imposter that is currently living in occuppied territory……MACEDONIA……
    If you want to call your cheese Macedonian, do so, because the cheese IS from Macedonia and so IS the cheese from the Republic of Macedonia, WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE, remember the country used to be whole pre 1912, I even knew my grandmother that lived through these times, and she told us stories, or havn’t you been taught this at school.
    We are from a village just outside of Salonika, however we are the same ethnicity as the people across the border in the Republic of Macedonia. We are all Macedonian.
    Achilles, what do you call my family.
    STOP allowing Athens from totally destroy YOUR mother tongue and culture, because if you are not a Macedonian from Thessasoniki, then you are from Asia Minor…..and finally stop the BULLSHIT POLITICS with me, as I have never meet a Greek that is indigineous to Macedonia, only the Macedonians that want to be Greeks, and there plenty of them poor souls.
    Athens has tried to eliminate our language and culture, without success, but obviously has succeeded with yours.
    POLITICS IT STINKS
    My response to you is not politics, but the truth.

  94. Anon

    Justice says : “My response to you is not politics, but the truth.:

    If you were remotely interested in the truth you’d be asking yourself what Krste Misirkov meant by these words. I think we both know except one of us is a immoral liar that pretends he doesn’t.

    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    “Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
    http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
    http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.htm

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”
    http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism.htm

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
    http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.
    http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

  95. kosta

    Does anyone speak Macedonian or Bulgarian language to make different be twin them.Or just believe your propaganda.Serbian and Croatian are almost the same but they are different nations.Polish, Slovakian and Czech language are almost the same are they same nation? Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian language are almost the same but different nations.Face the reality I speak Macedonian language and i am Macedonian and i’m here you liked or not.I don’t need somebody to tell me what i am and what language i speak. You have enough problems with all your neighbors and with yourself ,leave us alone.You can’t change the history.Your kids in the future will be shame on you.Your ancient relatives were clever and reach people but today’s Greeks are poor and stupid people and have nothing in common with ancient Greeks.

  96. lambe

    Hey,
    Do you all really think you are competent to discuss these issues?
    Let us focus on the reality.
    Nobody with a tiny drop of common sense could not argue against the similarity between the two languages. Even more, it is a fact that both nations claim to “own” the same historic events, same heroes etc. Not claiming to be an expert on the issue, I would also agree that there are significant similarities in the traditions, folklore and customs on both sides of the border.
    Let us say for an instance that there might be a trace of truth in what the Bulgarian party is saying. Let us also imagine that the roots of both nations are in fact the same.
    At one point in history a MACEDONIAN sense, different from the Bulgarian one started developing in one (significant) part of the people and they felt to be different from the “others”. This sense developed through history to a point in which this group of people started insisting on exercising their right for self-determination. And so they did. And this has ultimately been achieved in the process of the foundation of the independent Macedonian state.
    Now, we can enter the pointless discussions on whether the Macedonians are descendants of the antic Macedonians or is their origin Slavonic, or perhaps the truth is (as usually) somewhere in the middle.
    Since both sides claim to have facts and evidence to backup their (opposed) positions, I would gladly leave it to the science to deal with the issue for as long as it takes. Than we will finally understand whether the Macedonians are Bulgarians or not. Or perhaps, it is that the Macedonians are the the jewel on the crown of the Bulgarian nation and after loosing them as an integral part, the leftovers are not something to be glad about.
    However, I would only remain with what we all agree to be pure facts.
    There is now an independent state under a (disputed??????) name Republic of Macedonia. FACT 1
    There are over 2 million people who now are a part of a nation that identifies itself as Macedonian. FACT 2
    They communicate among themselves and with the institutions of the state (see above fact 1) in a language which they identify as Macedonian. FACT 3 (and by the way they understand each other perfectly well) FACT 3.1
    And guys I could go on forever with indisputable facts.
    So like it or not, the only thing remaining for the rest of the world is TO ACCEPT the REALITY,even if it means that they would have to wake up from their romantic dreams.
    As for the name and the related …….well it is another story. I just don’t believe in democratic principles with double standdards

  97. Ken

    Once again, as seen in Colonial Africa, and the collapse of the USSR, it is just not practical to have a new country every 500 miles based on forced borders or a slight ethnic or linguist change.
    Nationalistic pride aside how can Abkhazia, South Sudan, Quebec or Macedonia hope to be a fully functioning independent country?
    Resources and infrastructure are necessary – not just flag waving.
    Perhaps a Greater Macedonia and a Greater Bulgaria is the answer but I feel that in the future we will see a world model based loosely on the Autonomous Republics of the Soviet Union – this time based not on directions from Vienna or Moscow, but on organisations that can take the regional views in hand – in peace.

  98. Laurence

    Ken, sorry to say but I think your comment must be one of the most incredibly stupid responses I’ve seen regarding the Macedonian name dispute. All I think I have to say is that the Republic of Macedonia is in fact ALREADY a “fully functioning independent nation”… simply consider that prior to suggesting ‘practical’ opinions of such ignorance.

  99. Dean

    The language in FYROM is Slavic and the nation should adopt a name that reflects it’s true identity. Why not “Slav-Albanian Macedonia”?

  100. Dymond

    I have a better idea. Why dont we (I refer to the EU and specifically my own country, England) forcably eject Greece from the EU, avoid wasting another 113 billion and return the country back to living within its means. It would save a lot of time, and remove a destablizing influence in the region as well as the biggest path for illegal immigration into the other EU countries. Plus no one would stumble into another whineing thread like this by accident and waste a whole lot of time.

    Brilliant!. Now I fixed that I will go look at the trade deficit.

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  103. Real Greek

    Dymond , what a name for a Brit .. ? Or maybe no Brit . Anyway , I lived in your Country and funny enough my question is how many are of british origin left ? Most Brits are running trunk around Spain and Cyprus . Question here is not why or for what reason Greece should remain in the EU , the question is why we still consider England as European , I NEVER heard any Brit saying he is European or including the UK in Europe !! You should not really talk here since you have NOTHING to offer to us Europeans ,, So feel free to exit asap and stop doubting Greece to belong to the EU since that is just ridiculous , and maybe you should consider to find your own Antiques and give Greece back what your predecessor Elgin STOLE from our Country as simple as that !! Go Drink your daily Pint and leave Democracy to People that have made it for thousands of years ,,,, Cheers

  104. DARMAR

    I was thinking what to say but Dymond has said everything perfectly.I am from New Zealand and I am seeing Greece is the CANCER of EU and need to be removed for EU to survive.The Macedonians was in the same place for more than 2000 years same as the greeks we start the Kirilic letter with Kiril from Ohrid.The problem will be solved when Macedonia will go to the brothers Russians and ask to join them not the NATO.Than with the Russian military in Macedonia a lot off things will be changed.Greek and macedonians will need to work in the future for the next generations a for the sake of Balkans.

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  107. LULUBY

    Dymond and Darmar said all what i wanted …I just like to add that Greece is the ”dark side of the EU”….Greeks live very long time on the backs of the world workers who work hard for their money…It broke all human rights and support and ”feed” fashism and shovinism….Does Eu need it?!?

  108. Pingback : The True Substance of the Name Issue: Consequences of a Invented Dispute for Republic of Macedonia | janalozanoska

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